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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 American Silver before sterling
 "COIN" punch mark on American Silver
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| Author | Topic: "COIN" punch mark on American Silver |
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Fitzhugh Posts: 136 |
posted 01-01-2015 06:57 PM
  
Forgive me if this has been discussed in the past. Could anyone weigh in on just when American smiths started acquiring and using cartouche punches reading "COIN" to stamp their products? I'm very curious as to whether we can assign a circa date to such a mark. Thanks! ------------------ IP: Logged |
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asheland Posts: 935 |
posted 01-02-2015 10:16 AM
I strongly believe it to be around 1850. IP: Logged |
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asheland Posts: 935 |
posted 01-02-2015 10:17 AM
(1850-1870) IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-02-2015 11:04 AM
Are you speaking of an incuse or incised mark? IP: Logged |
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asheland Posts: 935 |
posted 01-02-2015 02:44 PM
WEV, Can you explain which is which? I get them confused... IP: Logged |
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Fitzhugh Posts: 136 |
posted 01-02-2015 04:58 PM
I would appreciate thoughts on either a cartouche or incised "COIN" mark used in conjunction with a maker's mark. Thanks everyone, and Happy New Year 2015! ------------------ IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 01-03-2015 08:03 AM
The following thread might be of interest to those reading this thread When Coin Evolved to Sterling IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 01-03-2015 09:41 AM
Deborah Dependahl Waters in her article “From Pure Coin” in Winterthur Portfolio 12 referenced an advertisement by John Cooke for silver equal to dollars as early as January 1789. No marks are shown for this time period where a silversmith actually stamped the word coin or its equivalent on their wares. The first mark indicating coin purity that Ms. Waters referenced is on a goblet by John B. Jones. This goblet is engraved 1833 and would be an indication that at least by this time manufacturers were using a “coin” marking. (This article is available to read on MyJSTOR. Registration is required for JSTOR. ) Who was the first silversmith to mark their wares with a “coin” mark may be impossible to find out, but whoever started it opened a flood gate and by the 1840s it was a common method to inform customers of the quality of their wares. IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 01-03-2015 09:48 AM
This may be outside the scope of this thread, but I use the word intaglio for marks where the letters appear to be above the surface and incuse for marks that have letters stamped in the surface. I think of incised as where the letters are cut in the surface. IP: Logged |
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Fitzhugh Posts: 136 |
posted 01-03-2015 11:09 AM
Ok, I'm staying. Intaglio references an incised mark or one cut/sunk into the surface, as opposed to a mark in relief, or cameo. As for the "COIN" mark, and please understand I'm attempting to not attack a particular example of silver, but the mark was recently found on a heavily chased & engraved snuff box that also bore a variant mark for a smith who died in 1838. The form & decoration seemed odd for the 1830s, as did the isolated "COIN" mark on the inner side edge of the box. The maker's mark was found on the front inner edge. Sorry to not provide particulars, but again I hate to seemingly attack a piece of silver now in private hands, but I feel the form, decoration, and "COIN" marking indicate a different smith of the same surname, one working in the 1850s rather than the 1830s. IP: Logged |
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Fitzhugh Posts: 136 |
posted 01-03-2015 11:29 AM
You have to think of Italian jewelry carvings. Intalios were cut into the stone so there were no raised surfaces. These were generally made in rings or served as seals for impression into wax. Cameos were carved away from the background so they were raised. Hope that better explains the terminology in regards to silver punches for folks. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-03-2015 11:33 AM
With images, it is likely the question could be settled in seconds. Without them (and I understand this is not always possible), there is nothing much of substance that can be said. Can you at least provide the name of the suspected maker? IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-03-2015 11:44 AM
Incuse mark  Incised mark IP: Logged |
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asheland Posts: 935 |
posted 01-03-2015 11:10 PM
Thanks wev! That is what I figured, your post clearly shows which is which... Also, thank you for the effort you put into your site on American silversmiths! I use it from time to time and find it incredibly useful and well done! IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 01-04-2015 03:43 PM
Louise Conway Belden in her book “Marks of American Silversmiths” seems to advise against using the words “intaglio” and “incised” to describe stamped marks as these words are used describe symbols that are cut into as object. Instead she likes the work “incuse” as it is derived from the Latin incusus (“forged” or “stamped”) and this reflects the method used to create the marks we see on silver. The problem with simply using incuse is that it does not differentiate between marks that have "in relief" or "recessed" letters. This may not be a problem for the normal person, but perhaps normal is not a good word to describe silver collectors. Perhaps “in relief incuse lettering” and “recessed incuse lettering” would accurately distinguish these differences. I do like the word “intaglio” as when spoken it has an appropriate amount of mystery to it that is enchanting. I suspect that I will still use it from time to time even if it is not as precise. IP: Logged |
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Fitzhugh Posts: 136 |
posted 01-07-2015 01:24 PM
WEV, sorry to correct, but your labeling for he sample images isn't right. That cartouche mark is not "incised." It is punched into the silver, but the letters are raised, not above the surface of the object, granted, but above the newly struck field. Incise would be equated with engraving or etching or, again, with the adjective intaglio. Merriam-Webster so defines, " an engraving or incised figure in stone or other hard material depressed below the surface so that an impression from the design yields an image in relief ." Despite differences in thought on this matter, we really have to reach back to the early art terms where we find "incised" a very good term as a companion to intaglio in describing marks completely below the object surface. Marks struck in cameo, or cartouche as we often say, are punched so that some part of the mark remains in plane with the original surface. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-08-2015 10:09 AM
These are the traditional terms for mark types. They describe the manner in which the punch was created, not the result of its use. In type founding, which shares intimacy with die sinking/punch making, one creates an incise drive by cutting away what is not wanted, then striking it into a steel blank, creating an incuse mold, from which type can then be cast, reproducing the original. If the same punches are used to mark silver instead, the first would produce an incuse mark, the second an incised. IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 850 |
posted 01-08-2015 11:29 AM
Fitzhugh marking a box is a tricky thing. The coin and makers marks on different edges is not out of the norm because of how the marks deform the metal. To have them in different places would make the setting (over hammering to make the mark look good) of the mark easier. My humble opinion on coin marks is that 1830's is about when they started being used commonly but I'm sure there could be some from before... As for incuse and insiced I think Wev has it right for the naming of the punches from the way they are cut but that is not the way the silver looks after it is marked. In the Moulton images the top one is from a rectangle of steel where everything but the letters are cut or filed away. When it is hammered into silver the letters are in negative with no surround. The second mark is from the same rectangle but the letters are carved in negative and the surround is left in tact. When it is struck the silver fills the void of the letters and the flat surround becomes the flat field - background that the letters sit on. Below is a definition for coins, this may not help but it is what happens on silver too. Definition: Incuse is where the devices or lettering on a coin are sunken below the field of the coin. Most coins today use relief (see bas-relief) where the devices and designs rise above the field of the coin.. IP: Logged |
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Fitzhugh Posts: 136 |
posted 01-12-2015 10:06 AM
Still contend you can't call a standard cartouche mark "incised." I've never seen any other agreement to such in the silver market. It's incorrect. IP: Logged |
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