|
A GLOSSARY of MILLED BANDS
|
|
| How to Post Photos |
REGISTER (click here)
|
|
A GLOSSARY of MILLED BANDS
|
|
| How to Post Photos |
REGISTER (click here)
|
|
 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 American Silver before sterling
 Empire teapot with IS mark
|
 SSFFriend: Email This Page to Someone! |
next newest topic | next oldest topic |
| Author | Topic: Empire teapot with IS mark |
|
Roger Nevling Posts: 58 |
posted 06-29-2016 04:03 PM
  
I recently picked up this Empire style teapot which closely resembles a Lownes teapot that AKGDC posted a question about way back in 2004 (one pot, two Lowneses). I am a bit confused about dating this as the IS mark is not in any of my reference books. I would love to contemplate this mark as being ascribed to John Syng, even though I don't believe the style matches his time of working. The heart is so similar to the one that Philip and Philip Jr used that it is tempting to wonder did John use the same cipher, except with IS? If anyone has a definite example of this mark it would be greatly appreciated, and if not, give your ideas about Syng being possibility. Thanks so much. I know I don't post often but I do love to read and learn when I get a chance. IP: Logged |
|
wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 06-29-2016 04:28 PM
The "I" is actually a damaged "P" or so it looks to me, so perfectly plausible for Philip Syng. IP: Logged |
|
Roger Nevling Posts: 58 |
posted 06-29-2016 05:11 PM
Under a loop the mark does not appear damaged, I will take a better look tonight a try to get a better picture of the mark but being on the bottom and deep inside it is always hard. I asked about the style and if Philip isn't it wrong for his period? I would love for this to be his teapot. IP: Logged |
|
asheland Posts: 935 |
posted 07-01-2016 01:02 PM
Handsome piece indeed! IP: Logged |
|
wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 07-01-2016 02:25 PM
A question: is the inside bottom of the pot smooth, unindented or does it show a bump up in the center? IP: Logged |
|
Roger Nevling Posts: 58 |
posted 07-03-2016 10:41 AM
Yes Wev there is a small bump on the interior of the pot. I'm not sure of the significance? What are your thoughts? Do you think it is an overstrike? Also in one of your first posts you thought it may be a damaged "P". In looking at the mark very closely it is definitely a damaged P. You can see where the loop of the P is coming off at the top and base. I will try to get a better picture of the mark if you think necessary. IP: Logged |
|
wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 07-03-2016 11:17 AM
To be honest, though it is a handsome pot, it is obviously way out of period and I think it has been fantasized. I believe a disk of silver with the Syng mark was added to the bottom of what would otherwise be a typical pot of the period to increase its value to an unsuspecting collector. It may have been removed from a badly damaged, but true piece, or created from whole cloth using a forged punch (several are known to exist). This was my first thought looking at the image: the pot bottom curvature is wrong, there is a circling join where there should not be one, it lacks a centering punch, and the depth and distortion of the mark strike itself. If the mark had been struck that hard on the actual bottom, you would almost be able to read it from the inside and the push would be very obvious. A competent smith, let alone one of Syng's caliber, would not drive a punch on an unsupported surface, as was done here. That said, pictures can be deceiving and the piece needs to be seen in hand to reach any sort of definitive conclusion. [This message has been edited by wev (edited 07-03-2016).] IP: Logged |
|
Roger Nevling Posts: 58 |
posted 07-03-2016 11:47 AM
Thanks WEV for you thoughts. My interest in silver, almost from the beginning has partly been about the history and the challenge of figuring out who made something or where it came from. I think I would love to get this pot into the hands of those who are scholarly enough to make a definite determination of this. Fakes are good to know as they help all of us see what may be out there and what to watch for in the future on other items. But if there is a chance this may be by Philips hand that would be good to catalog it along with other known pieces by him. If you or others can give some guidance on how I can go forward with getting this looked at it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much IP: Logged |
|
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 07-03-2016 01:07 PM
Perhaps agleopar or Fredz could recommend a silversmith with the right experience near you? IP: Logged |
|
Roger Nevling Posts: 58 |
posted 07-03-2016 02:22 PM
Thanks, I will wait for a reply. Hope you enjoy your 4th weekend. IP: Logged |
|
FredZ Posts: 1070 |
posted 07-04-2016 11:12 AM
Perhaps I missed it. Where do you live Roger? There might be someone who could give you an evaluation on whether the mark has been added. If that is the mark of Philip Syng then it must have been added. The style of the pot seems to be not of his period. Wev's comments about the indentations look to be spot on. It would be helpful to see the inside of the teapot down where the mark would be. If it has been altered to give the impression that is was made by Syng then they have done an injustice to both the original maker and to Syng. Does the teapot hold water? Fred IP: Logged |
|
Roger Nevling Posts: 58 |
posted 07-05-2016 09:26 AM
I am in southeast Oklahoma. Close to Tulsa and about 2 hours from Dallas. If necessary, it wouldn't be an issue to box and send it wherever. I will try to get a picture of the inside and I have not put water in it but will try that tonight. IP: Logged |
|
agleopar Posts: 850 |
posted 07-05-2016 10:37 PM
This is an interesting question... I'm having trouble seeing things very well in the images but assuming it has been messed with I posed the question to an expert of that period that if it is not Syng then could it be identified by the banding, ferrules and spout as to the actual maker? His reply: "Possibly, but banding was shared. It is certainly c. 1815-20, possibly Lownes, McMullin, Lewis or others. It may be possible to say, maybe not. It would take likely some time to put it all together." Any good smith should be able to spot if an addition has been made and/or the original marks tampered with. It would help to have better images or to see it in person. IP: Logged |
|
Roger Nevling Posts: 58 |
posted 07-06-2016 11:57 AM
Maybe Jeff Herman would be willing to look at it. It may be my best bet and I have no problem mailing it. My closest large market is Dallas and I could easily take it but it is about 2 1/2 hour trip and don't know the next time I will get there. I will shoot Jeff an e-mail and see if he is interested. Thanks again for the help IP: Logged |
|
wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 07-06-2016 12:06 PM
You would be hard pressed to find a more qualified smith. I suspect a simple (albeit careful) measurement will show if there was an addition to the bottom. IP: Logged |
|
Roger Nevling Posts: 58 |
posted 07-08-2016 03:55 PM
Mr Herman has looked at the pictures and feels that the mark is Philips as far as he can tell from them, but I will be sending the teapot to him for inspection and I will get back to this thread when he has an opinion as to authenticity. IP: Logged |
|
Roger Nevling Posts: 58 |
posted 09-12-2016 05:28 PM
I have an update on the teapot with the ? mark. I have spoken to Jeffrey Herman toady and after examining the teapot he is convinced that the PS mark is authentic and that there has been no tampering with the teapot or the makers mark. He put to rest all of the concerns that were raised by myself and the SMP readers concerning the teapots authenticity. Yes he states that the form is out of line with Philip Syngs date of work but that individuals were known to ask for designs that were out of touch with the current vogue and the fact that there is a paucity of items to compare to other works by Syng also makes it difficult to argue its provenance. He has recommended that Patricia Kane from Yale be asked for her opinion on the stylistic merits of the teapot in relation to its being from the early 1700s. The other mention was that the square base resembles an item by John Leacock, who by chance may have apprenticed with the senior Syng along with the son. I am therefore quite excited have this item authenticated by Mr Herman and to own such a rare piece. We will see if Ms Kane will look into this any further and add to the information. I will keep all informed of anything further. IP: Logged |
|
Roger Nevling Posts: 58 |
posted 09-13-2016 11:02 AM
Well I shouldn't have jumped up and down so quickly, while the punch is correct and the piece does not appear to have any areas where there has been tampering, it doesn't explain items such as the decorative bands which were made buy a rolled die available much later than Philip Syng senior. Mr Herman states he is not sure he has seen a piece so inconsistent. We will hopefully have some input from Ms Kane and I will let the forum know what if anything can be figured out. I would ask that if anyone has seen the exact dragons heads that are on the spout and the handle on other pieces to please let us know as it would be unlikely that they were cast and used for this teapot only. IP: Logged |
|
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 09-13-2016 06:46 PM
Not to question anyone's word (unless I am missing something), but for the record I would like to see posted in this thread a photo of this mark as it appears on this pot. [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 09-13-2016).] IP: Logged |
|
Roger Nevling Posts: 58 |
posted 09-14-2016 12:38 PM
It's the first picture at the top of the post IP: Logged |
|
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 09-14-2016 01:34 PM
 IP: Logged |
|
Roger Nevling Posts: 58 |
posted 09-14-2016 05:34 PM
Thank you Scott IP: Logged |
|
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 09-14-2016 06:17 PM
Yes. Much better. Thanks. -------- Catherine Hollan shows at least 6 different initial marks for him, only one with a heart-shaped punch. Frankly, although I don't doubt the mark is his, I can't see the mark in the photo well enough to tell which, if any, it is. - [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 09-14-2016).] IP: Logged |
|
ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 09-18-2016 04:22 PM
Catherine Hollan's book on Philadelphia silversmiths is a must if you have any interest in silver. As a plus the book also has a section on handle patterns and picture back designs. She issued another book last year on Eagle marks on American Silver, that again is filled with interesting information. IP: Logged |
|
Roger Nevling Posts: 58 |
posted 09-19-2016 04:36 PM
Yes I have her newest book on eagle marks and it is very nice with great pictures but must admit I do not have her earlier book on Philadelphia makers which I must look for a copy. IP: Logged |
All times are ET | next newest topic | next oldest topic |
  |
|
Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a
|
1. Public Silver Forums (open Free membership) - anyone with a valid e-mail address may register. Once you have received your Silver Salon Forum password, and then if you abide by the Silver Salon Forum Guidelines, you may start a thread or post a reply in the New Members' Forum. New Members who show a continued willingness to participate, to completely read and abide by the Guidelines will be allowed to post to the Member Public Forums. 2. Private Silver Salon Forums (invitational or $ donation membership) - The Private Silver Salon Forums require registration and special authorization to view, search, start a thread or to post a reply. Special authorization can be obtained in one of several ways: by Invitation; Annual $ Donation; or via Special Limited Membership. For more details click here (under development). 3. Administrative/Special Private Forums (special membership required) - These forums are reserved for special subjects or administrative discussion. These forums are not open to the public and require special authorization to view or post. |
|
copyright © 1993 - 2022
SM Publications
All Rights Reserved. Legal & Privacy Notices |
