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tlineopen  American Silver before sterling
tline3open  Philadelphia style

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Author Topic:   Philadelphia style
ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 08-06-2017 05:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

From left to right are four forks marked; a. PLK (for Peter L. Krider of Philadelphia) and J. Stevenson and Son; b. Animal head over shield with star and J.P. Butler of Philadelphia; c. animal head over chevron (mark of James Watts of Philadelphia) and F. J. Posey of Hagerstown Maryland and Shepherdstown Virginia; and finally PLK (Peter Krider) and Clark and Biddle. These are all the engraved type often with engine turning and must have been very popular in the 1850s and 60s in Philadelphia. One website has pictures of other patterns of that have even been given names.

Following are the marks for Krider and Stevenson and Son:




Peter Krider was a large firm in Philadelphia that supplied many retailers. I could not find anything on Stevenson and Son.

The mark for J.P. Butler:


The animal head over shield with star has sometimes been identified as another mark for James Watts, but I think today it is recognized as a mark for J.P. Butler. Butler and Watts worked together for a time and that may have caused the confusion.

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 08-06-2017 05:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here are the marks for Watts and Posey.

James Watts and F.J. Posey:

Posey is listed as working in Hagerstown Maryland and Shepherdstown, Virginia, (now West Virginia), but from my reference books it is not really clear how long he was in Shepherdstown.

And the marks for Peter Krider and Clark and Biddle:




Clark and Biddle are often referenced as being from Philadelphia, but none of my reference books list a Clark and Biddle. Does anyone have information on this company?

Was this style as popular in other cities as it appears to have been in Philadelphia?


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bascall

Posts: 1629
Registered: Nov 99

iconnumber posted 08-06-2017 07:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think J Stevenson and Son was a Pittsburgh, PA jewelry company.

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bascall

Posts: 1629
Registered: Nov 99

iconnumber posted 08-06-2017 07:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't know all their years together, but I do see just Clark & Biddle together in Philadelphia in 1866, 7 & 8.

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 08-06-2017 08:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Bascall. I have seen Peter Krider's mark on quite a few items west of Philadelphia including Louisville.

[This message has been edited by ahwt (edited 08-06-2017).]

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Polly

Posts: 1970
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 08-06-2017 10:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Does this pattern strike others as sort of an engraved version of popular die-struck patterns such as Olive?

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 08-07-2017 07:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think there is a resemblance and also the shoulder was eliminated during this time period.

It does seem the engraved style would have taken more time to make as I do not know how this could have be automated.

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 08-07-2017 12:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Today I think these are called grapefruit spoons, but they may have had another day when they were first made. This one is just marked coin on the back so the maker is unknown to me. These engraved and sometimes engine turned flatware articles came in a variety of spoons and serving pieces but I have never seen a dinner knife.

Does anyone know when the first American pattern was manufactured with a dinner knife? Tea knives came fairly early. I think dinner knives for old patterns were available from England, but it does seem we were fairly late in adding dinner knives to our table settings.

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bascall

Posts: 1629
Registered: Nov 99

iconnumber posted 08-07-2017 01:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't know all their years together, but I do see just Clark & Biddle together in Philadelphia in 1866, 7 & 8.

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agleopar

Posts: 850
Registered: Jun 2004

iconnumber posted 08-11-2017 08:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agleopar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
These are lovely examples and although I can not help you with any of your questions I'd like to chime in about the bright cut.

The engraver who did these was very experienced and fast. There are, as far as I know, no engravers now doing this kind of work to this degree. There are a few who do incredible lettering and gun engraving but not this style and difficulty of bright cut.

In the trade in the day they would have been well paid but it was still, with all the other hand workers, only a good living I imagine. A big firm would have employed many engravers.

Lastly, the term engine turning, while it was used at this time was not used on flatware... (being funny here), while it is called flatware, it is not flat enough to engine turn!

[This message has been edited by agleopar (edited 08-11-2017).]

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 08-11-2017 09:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks agleopar, Some of the engraving is so uniform on flatware of this time period that I was fooled into thinking it must have been done with a machine of some type. These engravers really earned their salary.

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