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tline3open  Questions on Gorham Old Medici

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Author Topic:   Questions on Gorham Old Medici
Bob Schulhof

Posts: 194
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 04-21-1999 02:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Schulhof     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My Coffee spoon, dinner fork and luncheon for are imprinted "Copyrighted" on the stem in back. The fish fork, teaspoon and oval soup are not. Is this a function of the type of piece or a key to dating? Does anybody have a teaspoon or oval soup that reads "copyrighted" or a dinner or luncheon fork that does not?

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Bob and Carol Carnighan

Posts: 63
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 04-27-1999 11:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob and Carol Carnighan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In my Old Medici, the number imprinted "Copyrighted" out of the total for the following pieces is: DF 25/49, LF 29/34, oval soup 19/22, fish fork 1/17, teaspoon 34/50. There appears to be no correlation with the other marks.

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Bob Schulhof

Posts: 194
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 04-27-1999 12:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Schulhof     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It would appear then that this might be a key to dating, which would be quite a breakthrough. Do any of your pieces have monogrammed dates on them that might correlate with the "copyrighted"?

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Bob and Carol Carnighan

Posts: 63
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 04-27-1999 06:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob and Carol Carnighan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Old Medici pieces with dates. + indicates copyrighted. - not. * indicates a series of identical monograms.
DF + 15Dec64
LF *A + 1884
LF *A + 1885
LF *A + 1888
LF *A + 1889
LF *A + 1891
LF *A + 1895
LF *A - 1896
LF + 1890
LF - 1884
Tsp + 22Mar85
10 Tsp 7/10 1888
Tbls *B - 1897
Tbls *B - 1898
Tbls *B + 1900
Tbls *B - 1901
Tbls *B - 1902
Serving spoon + 1Apr87
Child's fork + 22Apr85

It would appear that the "Copyrighted" was dropped sometime around 1900. One caution: the copyright mark sometimes is stamped on the side of the piece rather than the back.

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Bob Schulhof

Posts: 194
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 04-27-1999 06:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Schulhof     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you for your input. It would seem that you have made a great contribution to the science of dating Old Medici. I knew this was going to be fun. Please note my edit on the place setting write up due to your work.

Do you also collect Versailles? I know that the original pieces were marked "Copyrighted 88", but pieces also appear with just "Copyrighted" and then of course with just the traditional marks. Do you have a clue on these?

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edensterling

Posts: 40
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 05-04-1999 08:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for edensterling     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When I visited Sam Hough at the Gorham Archives last fall, I remember him telling me that between 1900 and 1902 Gorham made changes in most of their flatware patterns. They dropped the shell bowl from Versailles, they removed lacing from Cambridge and Chantilly. I have noticed many differences between the 1888 Versailles Catalogue and the 1910 Versailles Catalogue. It is also possible that this correlates to the time they dropped the copyright mark.

Both Versailles and Old Medici were designed by Antione Heller. It would be interesting to look at his other patterns from this time period and see if this trend holds true.

I know with Versailles, there is also a copyright 1888 or copyright '88 mark which appears. These slight variations may be from different time periods also.

Ben Randolph

[This message has been edited by edensterling (edited 05-04-99).]

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Bob and Carol Carnighan

Posts: 63
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 05-04-1999 09:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob and Carol Carnighan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Regarding Versailles. We examined 416 assorted pieces; only one had a date. A breakfast knife was dated 20Mar43 and had neither copyright mark. The lack of dates may be due to the relatively small amount of smooth flat space Heller left on the handles.

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Bob Schulhof

Posts: 194
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 05-05-1999 12:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Schulhof     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was discussing this matter with Dick Osterberg (Silver Flatware for Dining Elelgance). He said that there is a 1973 reference in Silvermag which referes to the marks on Gorham. In order to preserve your copyright for the first 16 years it was necessary use the inscription "copyrighted". However since the copyright expired after 16 years there was no longer a reason to continue it after that which is probably why the Old Medici and Versailles "copyright" message stopped. Therefore those bearing "copyrighted" are older pieces and would allow one to collect "Old" Gorham even with currently offered patterns. I have heard conflicting theories on Versailles, whether the "Copyrighted 88" are the oldest or just the plain "Copyrighted" but in any case they are probably all pre 1910.

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edensterling

Posts: 40
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 05-06-1999 05:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for edensterling     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Bob,

I would assume that at some point that the practice of stamping items "copyrighted" was no longer required by the government since many more patterns do not have this mark at all.

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