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Author Topic:   Connections with the past
ahwt

Posts: 2124
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 05-17-2004 10:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

The searching for provenance, including the maker, retailer and the original owner can be fun and with the help of the internet seems to be a much easier than in the past. Some time ago I brought a cup marked “Ster?Ameri?Man?” that also had the mark of Amable Brasier. I believe that the cup was actually made by Chaudron and Rasch as “Ster?Ameri?Man?” seems be recognized as their trademark. I also have been told that Chaudron pieces often had extra solder on the bottom as this one has. As a result I have assumed that Amable Brasier was the retailer of the cup. This cup has a handle with a repeating leaf and vine pattern. It also appears to have been modified into a creamer and it now has

Sometime later I found another cup with a handle having the same leaf and vine pattern, but not marked as to the maker or retailer. Instead the bottom is marked “Redman 1817”. This cup is also engraved AGR over AMT. Since both cups had the same handle pattern I assumed they were made in the same general area. A search with Google™ disclosed that in the 1810 census Mary Redman was a shopkeeper dealing in dry goods at 15 Third Street, Philadelphia while Amable Brasier was a listed as watchmaker at 23 Third Street, Philadelphia. I do believe that Ms. Redman, one fine day in 1817, walked down to Mr. Brasier’s shop and ordered this cup for someone with the initials AGR. I do not know the monogram practice of that time, but AGR may have been her daughter and her future son-in-law most likely was AMT. The search brought up an interesting web site at Datasets for Download that has quite a bit of good information including under High Street Ward (Excel format) the information about Ms. Redman and Mr. Brasier.

I cannot guarantee any of the above as true. Nevertheless, I had a great fun and enjoyment in looking for connections to the past.

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swarter
Moderator

Posts: 2920
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 05-18-2004 12:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You are indeed correct that the banner mark is from the same punch as that used by "Chaudron's & Rasch" as a standard or quality mark for the sterling content of their silver. It is, as far as I know, unique.

As far as the Brasier - Redman connection is concerned, that is nice detective work. The milled bands do look identical. The conclusion does seem inescapable that the proximity of the principals on the same street at the same time is indicative at least of a connection with Mary Redman's family, but it is too bad there is no initial present to pin it down to her. The engraving of the name and date seem contemporary, so if the connection does not exixt, it ought to!

As for the "different story," I would like to see more and detailed views of the covered jug/pot. Certainly the first thought that comes to mind, and correctly so, when one sees a feature on a piece usually associated with a different function, is that it might be a conversion. More often than not, it is. But, as the old song goes, "it ain't necessarily so." Not to get your hopes up unjustly, but there are a couple of things about this piece that could give me pause to wonder if it might not be original. It just might be worthwhile to pursue it further.

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ahwt

Posts: 2124
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 05-18-2004 10:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote



These are the only other pictures I have now. I still use 35mm and find pictures taken on the back porch on really cloudy days come out best. I will try to get some pictures of the hinge and spout tomorrow and get them posted. You can tell from the photo that the monogram is on the side and that the monogram appears to be of the same time period as the cup. I do feel that the handle is original and it is on the seam of the cup. The seam is somewhat visible from the inside.

It is interesting that the monogram is on the side rather on the side opposite the handle. This is the placement that I would expect with a creamer. I think on most cups the monogram is opposite the handle.

You cannot see it right now, but the upper ring was not cut away to make the spout. Only the body portion was cut away so liquid could pour out.

Thanks


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ahwt

Posts: 2124
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 05-19-2004 11:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote





I have added a few pictures that should tell something about the construction. The hinged lid and the ring that it fits in appear to have been separately made and soldered in place. There is a faint line or seam showing on the inside where the ring meets the body. As you can see, the ring portion of the lid assembly runs completely around the circumference of the pot, perhaps to provide extra strength.

There is evidence that the top attachment point of the handle was moved up to accommodate the increased height. On the inside you can see a repair mark where the top of arm of the handle most likely was originally attached. It must have been done a long time ago, as there is no sign of reattachment of the handle on the outside to a different location.

I looked again at where monograms are placed on cups and milk pot. Almost all cups that I looked at have the monogram opposite the handle. Milk pots seemed split as some were on the side and some were opposite the handle. I cannot discern any monogram removal under the spout so I think the only monogram that the pot ever had was on the side. I could be that the cup was converted to a milk pot shortly after it was made and the monogram added at that time.

I enjoy the pot as it speaks to a time when adaptations, modifications and repairs were made to objects used in everyday life. Some may call it a temperance cup, but it also works quite well to hold the simple syrup for a mint julep.

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swarter
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Posts: 2920
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 05-20-2004 07:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, it does appear that the "pot" is in fact an altered piece, as you suggest. I cannot help but wonder if these did not begin life as a beaker and a tumbler, with handles added to each, and not originally cups at all. Interesting pieces.

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ahwt

Posts: 2124
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 05-20-2004 09:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That is a very interesting thought. I'm not sure this means anything, but the leaf and vine handle on the Redman cup is reversed from that on the jug. That is the leaves point up on the jug and down on the Redman cup. I am not sure whether the leaves should go up or down, however I think it actually looks more realistic to have the leaves pointing up. Also the Redman cup has a very simple thumb holder that is really just the same milled work cut off, rolled at one end and soldered in place.
The Redman piece has a faint line on the inside where the top rim was attached to the body; however I cannot see the typical vertical line as the inside. Instead it has a slight hammered look on the inside.
Thanks again for your ideas about these pieces as they were very informative.

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swarter
Moderator

Posts: 2920
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 05-21-2004 12:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The reversal of the pattern that you have observed seems to be an inconsistency that is probably indicative that one or both handles were not added originally by the same person. The thumbpiece as you describe it doesn't quite sound original either.

You can edit your last posts to include actual the images if you enclose each picture link between [img] and [/img] without spaces - they should then come up within your posting. You can see how Scott did it in your first post in the thread by clicking on the edit message icon (a pencil) at the top of that frame and examining the text in the window - you can use the back button on your keyboard to back out of that message window without altering anything.

I have been attempting to send this latter information to you at the email address in your member profile, but messages are being rejected by your ISP.

[This message has been edited by swarter (edited 05-21-2004).]

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