posted 04-21-2003 12:46 PM            

Sometimes that 90 (top mark) can look like 00 or 60 or whatever. The bottom mark is 100 for sure.

posted 04-25-2003 03:46 AM            

Like this one -- R.u.B.90�45

--- and note that not all German silverplate flatware has the 90 or 100 marks.

posted 04-25-2003 12:27 PM            

I haven't seen anything lower than 90 either but today several companies offer 150.

Re. Suffices (90-45): it seems to me that I have seen the 45 on several manufacturers' and I'm not sure what other numbers I
saw if any. However, as silverplate isn't my first (or second or third) avocation, I haven't paid much attention. I do suspect
that it is something other than a pattern number and I will try to note these things for a while.

"..not all ... has the 90 or 100 marks.."
The manufacturers can only place it on items that meet the standard. Stuff below that
must have been produced for many special markets. Also, surely silverplating predates this standard by at least half a
century.

posted 04-25-2003 01:37 PM            

The 'two dozen main pieces' is the traditional derivation of the standard but technically for testing purposes it is defined as the weight per 24 dm2. That is about a quarter of a square meter. Thus the resulting layer is about 4 times the thickness that it would be if it were 90g/m2.

posted 04-29-2003 01:08 PM            

I believe that if there was a code on the books at the time the present one was issued in the early 80's then it had fallen in disuse. But I do believe there was one or at least an industry agreement much earlier for the following reasons:
- there is a degree of uniformity in the way the older wares are marked that is unlikely to be accidental (Why are so many marked with '84'?)
- the new code mandates the type of square marking that I believe has been on MA for a long time and you are confirming this
- it is not in the nature of any French government to forgo making rules for any area that a neighbouring state has legislated for.
Your mention of pre-1860 rules just adds to my belief that they must have been followed by others.

Some time back I tried to find information about this online. I was unable to find primary sources but pieced together some notes on the 1983 standard. If I ever find the sources for them again then I'll try to summarize them. However, since this deals with recent production it ought to be of little interest to this 'antique' crowd.

posted 04-29-2003 01:12 PM            

You are quite right that hotel silver can be 90g/m2. In fact it may be anything at all as it isn't covered by the act which addresses consumer goods. The only mention of 'hotel silver' is that the term may not be used in any advertising or display aimed at the general public. The assumption is that trade participants are sufficiently informed.
Consumer goods may only be called versilbert rougly 'silver covered' if they meet the requirements of the act. The weight of the silver per 24dm2 must be stamped on the piece. "90g" is considered the norm but deviations seem permissible. A manufacturer or retailer can offer wares that do not meet the standard but may not call them 'versilbert' or anything implying it.

The act dates from 1951 and some interesting issues arise now with the growth of the internet and auction houses. My impression is that the manufacturers still abide by it, but it is at present unenforceable among the on-line crowd and hence live auction houses are also being given considerable slack.

As for sources, I do have a few pages that I copied while raisin picking on another subject through a stack of books at a european library. When I susequently searched the net, I found less than that.

Note that the German code covers only flatware while the new French one talks about hollow ware as well. On flatware, although they appear radically different in that the French define their qualities by thickness and the Germans by weight, they are still fairly similar in the end result (for French 1st quality).

posted 04-29-2003 08:39 PM            

I'd like to change my previous statement to: "sometimes there will be a pattern number(?) following the 90 or 100. Like this one -- R.u.B.90·45".

I'll do some more digging also.

posted 05-12-2003 09:06 AM            

You've got so many cases underway I don't know which of them you are resting here and re-reading the thread doesn't tell me either.

To my mind what this last piece does, is to establish that '60' was used prior to 1925. It doesn't tell us what it means. It could be a weight designation or something else since we don't know when the current standard actually arose.

The question of the meaning of suffices after the '90' also lingers. I have found a couple of instances where within what appears to be a set, different pieces had unlike numbers, making it unlikely that they are patterns. I'll just try to keep making notes of this as I come accross them.

posted 05-12-2003 12:33 PM            

I am still working on the suffices. Perhaps there is no relevance to the original question on this thread. I don't know.

Maybe the original post on this thread refers to something that is neither "art nouveau", "German", "Austrial", "silver", "AEN", or "60". Without photos and some participation from astorix, who knows?

Austrial...