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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 Silverplate Forum
 ENGRAVED NUMBERS ON BACK OF OLD SHEFFIELD?
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| Author | Topic: ENGRAVED NUMBERS ON BACK OF OLD SHEFFIELD? |
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victoriaht Posts: 14 |
posted 02-28-2006 12:43 AM
  
I collect OSP and many times find pieces with tiny numbers very faintly engraved on the back. I've always thought these were put there by replaters, but recently a dealer told me that the numbers on a teaset he was selling were museum inventory numbers. I know, also, that sometimes owners engrave their SS#. Anyone have firm info on these numbers? IP: Logged |
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venus Posts: 282 |
posted 02-28-2006 07:54 AM
Have seen that on several things purchased and have been curious as well. Found a group of diverse things purchased from a dealer who had gotten them at auction. Wondered if they had to do with that auction? However the crystal and sterling coasters had no such marks. Would have ruined them for sure. Interesting subject, glad you brought it up. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 02-28-2006 09:05 AM
Anything is possible, but I would find it hard to believe a museum curator would intentionally deface an artifact which is entrusted to his/her care in such a way. It sounds more like the action of an overly possesive owner. IP: Logged |
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victoriaht Posts: 14 |
posted 03-02-2006 10:54 PM
I thank you for your responses! IP: Logged |
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Tad Hale Posts: 120 |
posted 03-03-2006 01:25 AM
I have been told several times in the past that these were identifying marks. These marks were scratched in by the owner or a jeweler to identify a piece in case of theft. Sometimes it was their Social Security number, other times a random number made up by the insuree. This was done for scheduling an item separately, on their homeowners policy. Thanks, Tad IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 03-03-2006 11:16 AM
Back in the 70's there was a push to identify silver and other valuable items. Police departments had eletric marking pens available to loan out. A lot of things got marked then. The program seemed to fade away in the 1980's. I have seen the marks on silverplate and even some ceramics. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 03-03-2006 12:57 PM
I have repeatedly seen these numbers scratched on the bottom of English holloware found in the US. The prevailing opinion of dealers reselling these items seems to be that they are inventory numbers of larger dealers and perhaps auction houses put on to keep track of their stock (and maybe also to detect fraudulent returns?). Museums frequently write catalog numbers on in paint or ink. I once assembled a number of matching spoons and tongs, so marked with related numbers, from several shops over a period of a few months. I eventually traced them to a flea market seller who had bought the group at auction after they had been surplused by the LACMA, and who had then sold them off piecemeal. [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 03-03-2006).] IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 03-03-2006 01:50 PM
Swarter says: I have repeatedly seen these numbers scratched on the bottom of English holloware found in the US. So have I. And my experience has been that the imported silver plate was sold by department stores not by jewelers. These may be department store markings, assigning items to particular tabletop lines. IP: Logged |
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Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 03-03-2006 02:38 PM
Certainly on silver in many cases , and probably on silverplate, these can also be pawnbrokers numbers when the items were "pledged" to secure a loan. IP: Logged |
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victoriaht Posts: 14 |
posted 03-03-2006 04:38 PM
Thanks to all for the replies. Everything you say makes sense. However, I find it odd that I never come across these marks on sterling -- only on silverplate. Have any of you seen them on sterling items? IP: Logged |
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sazikov2000 Posts: 254 |
posted 03-03-2006 08:30 PM
The famous Russian Court Jeweler Karl Fabergé scratched in all his gold and/or silver items which were sold in his shops, so called inventory numbers, and kept lists which still partially exists. What many forgers did not know: commissions for the Court were n o t numbered!! The lately organisized "backsale" to an Russian oligarch and the "donation to the Russian people" (in Moscow I was told, that this donation saved him of many years in prison!) of the Malcom Forbes Easter Presentation Eggs Collection, revealed two (!) as total fakes - those with the scratched numbers! This new information made many people and museums around the world very nervous... Sazikov 2000 IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 03-04-2006 10:48 AM
Other numbers also appear. On American coin holloware the maker sometimes added the "scratch weight" (weight of silver scratched in the bottom), selling price (in pounds sterling or dollars, depending on when made), and sometimes an inventory or production number - what we would call a serial number today) Scratch weights are common, prices less so, and the others rather rare. IP: Logged |
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victoriaht Posts: 14 |
posted 03-04-2006 01:00 PM
Yes,I know about the old "scratchings" -- scratch weight, etc. on bottoms of pieces of period silver --I LOVE those on my pieces -- but those are entirely different. The ones I'm referring to are clearly done with a modern engraving tool and the figures have a modern appearance. My silver collection is probably equally divided between OSP and Georgian/Regency sterling. To a lesser degree I also collect Elkington and Barker Ellis electroplate. I've checked all my sterling -- and have only found one small creamer with the types of numbers I'm asking about. I also checked the Elkington and Barker Ellis. Two Barker Ellis trays have the numbers. Guess what? Those trays have clearly been replated. And: NINE pieces of my OSP have the numbers. Those pieces also appear as if they might have been replated.Interesting. Although I'm sure numbers are engraved for other reasons, too, I'm really wondering if perhaps in England those numbers are used by replaters. It would certainly be a great thing for fledgling collectors of OSP to know, since replating greatly effects the value of OSP and is sometimes difficult to detect. I'm playing Nancy Drew here, staying on the case. All clues appreciated. IP: Logged |
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Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 03-04-2006 01:35 PM
Just to add two buckle related numberings. Georgian Irish buckles almost always have a number (in standard numerals) on each frame, in the case of shoe buckles always an even number. May relate to silver weight. American shoe buckles seem to have similar numbers but in Roan numberes XXX etc. Eley chaped buckles ,if ,ade by eley and some other silversmiths often have a four to six digit number stamped on the chape and on the silver frame. Suggestion is that they are a serial nuber , and were for identification in case of loss or theft. I've been trying to identify a pattern for years - with no success. Keeps e out of iscief I suppose IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 03-04-2006 07:29 PM
It would make sense that platers (especially large volume workers) would have to mark objects being processed to keep track of them and avoid mixups. Good observation. IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 03-06-2006 12:00 PM
It is also the case that plating at different times can produce slightly different effects. So it would make sense to mark all items belonging to an individual so that they would go in the vat together and then all look alike. IP: Logged |
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victoriaht Posts: 14 |
posted 03-06-2006 01:52 PM
I suppose someone who does replating could enlighten us? Of course, they may not all use numbers. IP: Logged |
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victoriaht Posts: 14 |
posted 03-28-2006 03:31 PM
I think I have solved this mystery!On the website of the Association of Small Collectors of Antique Silver (ASCAS)article #42 entitled All These Numbers...states that the modern hastily-scratched-in numbers on silver items are indeed repair numbers, engraved by the repair shops to keep from mixing up items. These repairs would include replating, but might be any repair, so it does not follow that any item with the numbers has been replated. Still, a repair of any sort does affect value, therefore it is good to be on the lookout for these numbers. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 03-28-2006 04:33 PM
There are a number of interesting articles available on the ASCAS website. IP: Logged |
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