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 Dinner vs Place vs Luncheon Size
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| Author | Topic: Dinner vs Place vs Luncheon Size |
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chase33 Posts: 362 |
posted 03-31-2008 08:56 PM
  
Hello Everyone, In putting together my spreadsheet, I began wondering about the different sizes and when they became a part of common usage. The 1914 catalog lists a medium knife and table fork, a tea knife and tea fork, and a dessert knife and fork. The late 1960's catalog I recently received only lists a place knife and fork and a luncheon knife and fork. Is the designation of luncheon, place and dinner a "modern" (i.e., post 1950ish) phenomenon? And how about the designation of European or Continental (1980-1990ish?)? Any thoughts or comments would be gratefully appreciated. Robert IP: Logged |
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taloncrest Posts: 169 |
posted 03-31-2008 11:53 PM
I pretty sure that dinner size as a term was around at least in the 1920's. Oneida offered dinner and dessert knives and forks in silverplate. The dinner was what we would call dinner, and the dessert we would now call place or lunch size. I don't think the terminology used was consistent, though. I have the 1928 Sears catalog reprint, and all of the forks, if they have any size designation, are listed as medium. I do know that dinner size was considered formal, and it fell out of favor around World War II, as most entertaining done then tended to be informal, such as teas and bridge parties. I think bridge parties are the reason that about the same period they started advertising services for eight rather than the previously standard service for six. IP: Logged |
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middletom Posts: 467 |
posted 04-07-2008 10:44 PM
I'm not sure if Old Newbury is anything to judge by, but we have always, as far as I know, offered dinner size forks which have been and continue to be the most popular with our customers.Though we have always offered luncheon size also, that size has fallen into disfavor in the past twenty years. With our sizing, a place fork has luncheon tines and a dinner handle, so it is in between the other two. Since the mid-eighties, we have also offered what we call our European size fork. That size came into our line because dealers in the eighties told us that the European china makers were making their plates larger and those plates were dwarfing the standard American dinner size. Using some pieces of French silver for size examples, we added that new size to our offerngs. It has sold middling well, though occasionally a customer has complained that the fork and accompianing place spoon are too large to get into the mouth comfortably. IP: Logged |
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chase33 Posts: 362 |
posted 04-08-2008 10:25 AM
Thanks for your info. It helps put somethings in perspective and also has given me some ideas as to how to tell the different sizes apart. Last night I ran across another size call tea size. It is listed as a tea knife and tea fork. Is this the same as the "youth" fork and knife or is it completely different? Robert IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 04-08-2008 08:10 PM
My understanding is that the terms luncheon and dinner are fairly traditional ones. The idea was that one unified pattern could be used for both meals. Old china sets had different size plates for lunch and dinner. The breakfast or tea size seems somewhat more erratic. Some sets have it, some don't. All for no clear reason. Sometimes it resembles the youth peices, frequently it does not. The continental size is actually quite old. Silversmiths in Louisiana worked with that profile as did the ones in Quebec. Some of the makers offered their standard patterns in continental size for these markets, even back in the 1890's. These pieces are somewhat rare, but do exist. One area in which we know comparatively little regards the 'export' pieces made by US factories. Oneida made fish sets, both place and serving, for export only down into the late 40's. These were for sale only abroad. Oneida also made dessert forks and knives for export only. A few of these sets have trickled in to the US recently. I was quite surprised to see a fruit set in Deauville. Had handled it for years and never had one appeared in literally hundreds of sets. The dessert sets were sold in France, Quebec and Haiti. IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 04-08-2008 08:12 PM
Also check for 'grille' and 'viande' forks and knives. These were made with a long handle and short working area. Usually in plate, but I have seen them in sterling. IP: Logged |
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Brent Posts: 1507 |
posted 04-12-2008 10:09 AM
I almost hate to wade into such a sticky bunch of defintions, but I'll try. By the late 1800s, as manufactuters began to produce full sets of matching flatware including hollow handle knives, table knives and forks were generally offered in two sizes, dinner and luncheon. Luncheon is the current term for the small size, but some manufacturers would call them medium, or tea, or breakfast. All the same thing, though. Sometime around WW II, manufacturers began offering a new size, called "PLACE". This size is somewhat intermediate between dinner and luncheon. Place knives are often as long as traditional dinner knives, but have longer handles and shorter blades. Place forks are often the same size as dinner, but with slightly differnt shape and proportions. Gorham actually denotes their place size flatware with a P in a diamond. This often appears on the blades of place knives and the handles of place forks. Some patterns also have a place salad fork, which tends to be larger than the traditional. When Place sizes were made available, luncheon sizes began to be phased out. it is still possible to buy new dinner and place size settings in several patterns, but not new luncheon settings. Hope this helps a little. Brent [This message has been edited by Brent (edited 04-12-2008).] IP: Logged |
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chase33 Posts: 362 |
posted 04-14-2008 10:14 AM
Thanks Brent, Your information helps alot. It seems like the more I find out the more questions I raise as well. Just trying to figure out the knives made in my pattern is enough to make one dizzy. Between the different sizes, blade styles and materials, making sense of it is a little bit daunting. Thanks Again Robert IP: Logged |
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