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| Author | Topic: Mystery Whatzit |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 04-20-2010 12:51 PM
  
[26-1975] At dinner the other night a new friend showed us a mystery object and it has us stumped Here's what we know:
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agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 04-20-2010 01:55 PM
I don't know the answer, but the holes on the shoulders of the item suggest it was intended to be fixed on to something else. Might it have been something like a bud holder, perhaps one of a cluster pinned to some sort of centre piece? IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 04-21-2010 10:18 AM
A bud vase sounds plausible. I have no idea, but I do have a wild guess. Perhaps it could be some kind of catcher for drippings? The holes indicate it is to be attached to something else, but they do not appear to be rivet holes for a permanent attachment. My guess is this object is meant to be removeable from a larger object, and it would be attached by pressing it on two small studs that would be on the larger object. After use, it could be easily removed and cleaned. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 04-21-2010 12:24 PM
To me the object’s front is where the pocket is. The top is where the two small holes are. The back is concaved. If the back were flat, I would suspect the item might have been a stick match holder. The two holes are fairly small in diameter. Holes of this size are often seen on items that are sewn onto something else. I don’t think this was the case since the distance from the hole to the edge is larger than sewing would require. The holes could have been used to attach a chain. Although possible, my gut says that wasn’t the case. If the holes weren’t for a chain or sewing, then they are the right size for small brads/tacks. I suppose this could have been a piece from something larger. The larger object most likely had a curved surface that the item was attached to. Perhaps a large round pin cushion, a wood trophy or some other device with a rounded surface where this was attached. If it wasn’t custom/made once, we might get lucky about identification. Since it was made in 1938, it may appear in a catalog. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 04-21-2010 01:30 PM
More rumination.... If this were a flat back stick match holder then there would have to be a strike. Most often the strike would be incorporated into the holder but not always. In some cases the strike was mounted separately. With the concaved back and with a separate strike then I could imagine both being mounted on a rounded wooden tobacco humidor. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 04-21-2010 05:39 PM
A match holder sounds plausible, though I wonder about the size - it is not terribly large and the rounded bottom would mean that one would need put small matches in it and they would not sit well since the ends would get scrunched up in the bottom that narrows in both side to side and front to back dimensions. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 04-21-2010 05:43 PM
Harry Atkin Brothers made quite a few liquor bottle tags on chains, as well as liquor accessories such as tantaluses. The holes could be for a chain, though they do seem a bit small. Maybe this was something along the lines of a measuring implement, for something like a shot worth of liquor? Or maybe for a cocktail ingredient like sugar or juice or such? Cocktails had begun to come into fashion in the 1920s and were very much the thing in the 1930s. Barware such as fancy martini shakers were quite the rage at the time. If it were on a chain, the concave back could be to have it fit a bottle or cocktail shaker? [This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 04-21-2010).] IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 04-21-2010 06:02 PM
You might be on to something... At dinner someone held the whatzit up to a bottle of wine... The red bottle's curves didn't match up perfectly but it did seem like a possibility. We dismissed the idea when we couldn't think of what would go into the pocket. IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 850 |
posted 04-21-2010 10:34 PM
It is the right size for a bottle with the compound curve. The holes might have had jump rings and a chain? If it had been hammered onto wood there probably would be evidence of deformation around the holes. Was it for holding the just removed cork? IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 04-22-2010 01:23 AM
I think the holes are a later addition (or the smith was very sloppy in his placement) and it is a caddy spoon of a not well considered design. IP: Logged |
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jersey Posts: 1203 |
posted 04-22-2010 04:59 PM
Given it is a caddy spoon/ scoop, is it possible it hung in a tea caddy box? Jersey PS My friend in England agrees with it's being a caddy. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 04-22-2010 06:03 PM
Now that Wev has pointed out the holes are poorly aligned, I am wondering that if it is a caddy spoon, that perhaps the holes were added by an owner in his home handyman workshop (certainly not by the maker or a skilled jeweler) at some later point in its life to use to put a string or chain on it to attach to something like a caddy, or maybe on a replacement caddy? IP: Logged |
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Patrick Street Posts: 24 |
posted 04-22-2010 07:48 PM
Scott, If you have a look at p15 of the current April 2010 Newsletter of the Silver Society of Australia Inc you will see a similar item with chain attached to the holes. It was made by Asprey & Co, London and assayed in 1902/3. It would appear that the object displayed on your website has lost its chain. It was described by the dealer as a tea pot drip container. Somehow the chain would be attached to the teapot spout in order to catch any drips. [This message has been edited by Patrick Street (edited 04-22-2010).] IP: Logged |
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mazarine Posts: 6 |
posted 04-22-2010 11:02 PM
As the proud owner of the silver thingamajig under discussion, I have been reading the suggestions with keen interest! I should stress that I do not know the object's function either. In response to agleopar, thanks for the idea but I must tell you that the curvature of the piece does not fit a regular sized wine bottle, neither Bordeaux shape nor Burgundy, and that the scoop portion is too small to hold a cork. For me, Patrick Street's comment is the most illuminating so far, although now I am wondering where to find a copy of the Australian Silver Society newsletter! Also, I wonder whether the dealer really knew the object's purpose. It would have to be a mighty big teapot for the piece to fit snugly around the base of the spout. But the general concept of tea paraphernalia is one that I hadn't thought of. IP: Logged |
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Patrick Street Posts: 24 |
posted 04-22-2010 11:44 PM
Thanks to Scott's ingenuity and help I am able to post a copy from our Silver Society Newsletter of the object made by Asprey & Co. IP: Logged |
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PhilO Posts: 166 |
posted 04-23-2010 02:10 AM
I have no idea either, but I must point out that the date of the Asprey version of the whatzit is 1927/28 and mazarine's is 1937/38 so they are a bit more contemporaneous. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 04-23-2010 08:57 AM
quote:
While the curvature might of both examples have been to fit the curvature of the base of the spout or even the body of the tea pot when it was set down, another possible function could have been to catch drippings smoothly and without splashes. The small tongue extention at the top that is seen on both examples may have been to ensure drops were caught on that area so they would flow down into the cup portion. [This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 04-23-2010).] IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 04-24-2010 10:23 AM
If either of the owners of this whatzit might demonstrate the "...attached to the teapot spout in order to catch any drips", it would be helpful. IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 04-25-2010 04:46 PM
The ones I have seen have had a chain which contained a hair pin type device that was inserted in the spout. They never looked like they would work. Plus, you need the leaves to tell fortunes. IP: Logged |
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mazarine Posts: 6 |
posted 04-28-2010 12:29 AM
OK, here's my attempt to show the object attached to a teapot spout, now that I have found a big enough teapot. It looks pretty awkward, though I guess there may be other shapes/sizes of teapot that would fit it better. As for catching drips, it does catch some, but is not much good for the ones that dribble down the underside of the spout. The most anomalous part is the rounded convex lobe, or lip, at the top. Surely this should have been designed with a concave curve if it were really intended to lie against the underside of a spout. I wonder if we're barking up the wrong tree with this teapot drip catching idea! IP: Logged |
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vathek Posts: 966 |
posted 04-28-2010 07:09 AM
Personally I'm not buying it. When the pot tips for pouring the object would swing forward and hit the cup and not catch any drips. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 04-28-2010 09:02 AM
Thank you for the images. I agree it doesn't seem right. Dale's suggestion that a hair pin type device that was inserted in the spout might make a difference but I don't think so. IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 04-28-2010 09:01 PM
 Here is an example of the strainer that uses a hairpin type device. The hairpin is inserted into the spout of the teapot and when the tea is poured the strainer rotates so that the tea is poured though it and catches any leaves. I do not think that the mystery item was meant to catch final drips from a teapot; however I really have no idea as to its use. IP: Logged |
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mazarine Posts: 6 |
posted 04-28-2010 09:37 PM
Yes, and another example of a 'spout-mounted strainer' can be seen at: These are clearly quite different from our object in both concept and design. IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 04-29-2010 01:34 AM
Having the device hit the cup is not a worry as tea is best poured some distance above the cup so as to oxygenate the liquid. There is an enormous amount of tea related practices that don't get much ink. IP: Logged |
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agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 04-29-2010 05:42 AM
Was a device ever invented to catch the drips from a spout mounted strainer, I wonder. IP: Logged |
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Patrick Street Posts: 24 |
posted 06-11-2010 07:23 PM
Thanks to Scott's help I have taken a photo of how I think the teapot drip catcher could work. This is a write-up taken from the June 2010 edition of the Newsletter of the Silver Society of Australia. Comments welcome.  Patrick Street IP: Logged |
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vathek Posts: 966 |
posted 06-12-2010 07:01 AM
Again, not to be a skeptic, but isn't the chain rather long? Wouldn't it make more sense for it to hang right under the spout? IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 06-12-2010 08:53 AM
I've sent an email to three offices of Asprey (UK, US, JP). vathek may be correct. Although the chain fits nicely in the notched teapot spout, the chain does seem a little long for this use. Perhaps it is time we get creative and toy with other ideas? The chain's length might indicate it hung around something with a large enough diameter to cause the curved back of the object to fit close to what it was draped on? IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 06-12-2010 01:47 PM
From Asprey: quote: IP: Logged |
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ellabee Posts: 306 |
posted 06-15-2010 03:45 PM
Assuming the Asprey chain is original, I'm leaning more heavily to wev's suggestion that both items are caddy spoons (made to fit particular caddies from which they've become separated). IP: Logged |
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blakstone Posts: 493 |
posted 06-16-2010 01:02 AM
I'm really enjoying this discussion. I wish I had something constructive to add, but I'm stumped. I will say that both the drip-catcher and caddy spoon theories seem far-fetched and impractical to me. The two pieces shown are so similar that their very distinctive shape must, I think, be essential to their function. One thing that occurs to me is that it appears to be the exact shape and size to fit over the bowl of a spoon. Perhaps it was the holder for a caddy spoon? Whatever the case, I strongly suspect that when identified, the odd shape of the piece will immediately seem practical and elegant. IP: Logged |
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mazarine Posts: 6 |
posted 06-19-2010 05:43 PM
I'm back with an attempt to revive the drip-catching idea, but not for teapots, nor their spouts, nor wine bottles, but for a DECANTER. This was suggested to me by a silver expert friend in London. It makes sense that owners of a silver whatzit would be serving their port, whiskey, etc. in decanters. If the decanter had a bulbous shape, the whatzit would hang flush against the side rather than hanging in mid-air. There might even have been a piece of felt stuck to the back of the object so as to absorb drips down the glass. To test this idea one would need to find a glass decanter of the right size and curvature. This I have not done, but I did find a cognac bottle that fits perfectly. I show this in the photos below, but emphasize that the bottle is merely playing the part of a glass decanter of similar shape. IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 06-20-2010 12:56 AM
Thanks for the very interesting post. I suspect that the silversmith would custom fit this with the decanter. IP: Logged |
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dragonflywink Posts: 993 |
posted 06-20-2010 10:06 AM
Have to say I'm with blakstone here, and have a hard time seeing this as some kind of drip-catcher or spoon. Silver liquor labels can sometimes be a bit of a pain when tipping the decanter to pour, can't seem to get around this item being impractical for anything used for pouring, and how would one direct where the drips would fall from a bottle or decanter without a spout. The concave back of the "pocket" would, to my mind, make it awkward as a caddy spoon or any other type of scoop; it would seem more practical if used to hold a spoon or something else. Definitely a weird object, perhaps the gentleman from Asprey will come through with a definitive answer. ~Cheryl IP: Logged |
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oscarbrown Posts: 10 |
posted 07-13-2010 12:23 AM
what a fascinating piece. Moving away from a drip catcher, could it be some kind of car vase? Curved to sit snugly on a padded area of the door frame or front seat? For a little posy of violets or some such. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 05-08-2011 12:51 AM
On Saturday I sent another follow-up (including the link to this tread) to the nice gentleman at Asprey, Stephen Eaves. He promptly responded: quote: He is reading his email from a Blackberry/smartphone of some sort. I can only assume the phone had problems reading the forum thread. In my my email response have sent him: IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 05-11-2011 12:51 PM
I sent email to five others at Asprey.
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 05-25-2011 02:16 PM
So far Stephen Eaves has not followed through. On May 11th the email to these five at Asprey was acknowledge as read. And none at Asprey has bothered to reply.
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commish Posts: 2 |
posted 05-27-2011 05:45 PM
Hi Everyone: I new to the forum but been collecting for a while. This item may be a posy holder that fits in the handkerchief pocket of a man's suit. Or maybe it can be pinned behind the boutineer (sp) slit on the lapel. Hence the holes. Maybe? IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 05-28-2011 03:48 AM
Mazarine, The combination with the cognac bottle (looks great to me). I wonder if someone who invited a good friend put some fine cigars in it and had a good conversation with a lot of smoke hanging around. Second opinion concerning your perfect combination with the bottle is that perhaps matches were put into it because cognac has to be warmed at a special temperature? Or is it brandy ? I don't drink both of them but in my historical mind a just once saw a person warm a liquor and smoking a cigar. Last try out is that the invited person could put a donation into it, after emptying the bottle (knowing the price of a good bottle of cognac). And knowing of course the price of a good cigar.etc.etc. But I go for your combination. I think the maker of this article enjoy all this attention of his product. There is also a possibility to correct my grammar (that is needed for sure!!!) Greetings I did my best and know I have to rest!!!!
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 02-17-2015 02:03 PM
Its been a couple of years... no further comment from Asprey & Co, London .... Anyone have additional thoughts? Perhaps:
I do think it was shaped to fit something round in shape. IP: Logged |
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Heartwings Posts: 15 |
posted 02-21-2015 08:12 PM
I wonder if it could have anything to do with a chatelaine and it is meant to hold a small flask or etui or some such thing? It does seem much too big to be any sort of drip catcher plus it would slide and not really work. I love a mystery! IP: Logged |
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Heartwings Posts: 15 |
posted 04-08-2016 07:42 PM
There is one in EPNS listed on an auction site and the seller says they did considerable research to ID it and it is a wine bottle drip catcher that dates to about 1900. It makes sense! There is a chain to hang it that is missing on yours. I then found this:  I think that is what it is, so putting it on the cognac bottle was not too far off base. Try it in a wine bottle and see how it works! IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 04-13-2016 11:36 AM
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