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| Author | Topic: Old Silver Rings |
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Mark4321 Posts: 11 |
posted 02-21-2016 03:13 PM
  
Hi all, My name is Mark and I'm from Iceland. This forum was recommended to me by Gaspare, since I'd like to learn more about my -new- hobby. One important question for us is this: how to distinguish a cast ring from a die struck one? Because there are many many fakes -around 90% or more, some say- and one very sure way to know a fake is by identifying that it's cast...as period rings were nearly exclusively die struck. There are many ways, but I was always wondering: is there a SURE, a certain way to perhaps test the metal to find out beyond the shadow of any doubt? I know a little bit about other signs: porosity, bubbles, fault lines, mushy detail, etc. But the counterfeiters are getting better every day, so we need to stay ahead of the game! Perhaps it is a little weird, but in a way I enjoy that part of it: more detective work is needed, and you really gotta delve pretty deep into the subject -become at least sort of knowledgeable- if you don't want to get hoodwinked! :)
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 02-22-2016 01:37 PM
Sæll Mark, and welcome to the silver salon forum. I am not sure that knowing if a ring is cast or die-struck will help you much in determining authenticity of an older ring. There are a number of different ways a ring can be made: casting, die-striking, soldering, and tube cutting come to mind. Casting is among the oldest ways and it is still done today so if a ring is cast that would not be a very helpful way to date it. Die-striking is a little newer, but it has been in use for a very long time and other than ancient rings it might not be very useful either. Soldering is where the smith takes a wire or a flat length of metal and winds it around a mandrel and solders the ends together. Again, this has been around for a very long time up to and including today so it may not be a very helpful way to date a ring. Cutting a slice off the end of a tube is a little newer as seamless tube extrusion was not around a very long time ago, but it is not going to narrow down the dating by very much. In all of these methods there will be anywhere from a little to substantial hand working after the basic shape is created. Such refinements can give some general idea to a ring's age by the style and the amount of hand work, though this is not very reliable for getting a precise date. Another way is to look at the stone or stones that may be inset into a ring, if it has any. The way a stone is cut or the color and refinement of the stone can give some narrowing of a date. The final way is to see what, if any, markings may be on the inside of the ring. Sometimes engraving styles can give a sense of age, or if you are lucky there may be hallmarks that give you an exact age. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 02-22-2016 01:58 PM
Kimo is pretty much on point. Thanks Kimo. Seeing some good photos from your collection and knowing your particular questions might help us to provide more info. You might also find some of the videos on YouTube about ring making and ring casting informative. IP: Logged |
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Mark4321 Posts: 11 |
posted 02-22-2016 02:32 PM
quote: Hi Scott, thanks so much for the reply. Let me see if I can find out how to attach pics here, then I can show you two examples of what I'm talking about. Fortunately, in my particular area of collecting, it is a pretty safe thing to say that cast = fake, die struck = real. So all I need to know is: is it cast. BASICALLY.... There are of course other indicators, as Kimo pointed out; especially hallmarks are a good one, IF there are any, which isn't always the case. My specific question: I was wondering if there is a bullet-proof way to know that a ring was cast, say by some sort of chemical analysis for example, or under a strong microscope, etc, etc. Most of the time you can see it with a lupe, but sometimes there are some doubts, and you have to say thank you but no thank you, given the non-benefit of doubt. Thanks again, Mark IP: Logged |
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Mark4321 Posts: 11 |
posted 02-22-2016 02:40 PM
quote: Blessadur Kimo, I oasre here what I wrote to Scott: Fortunately, in my particular area of collecting, it is a pretty safe thing to say that cast = fake, die struck = real. So all I need to know is: is it cast. BASICALLY.... There are other hints and indicators like hallmarks, but not always. Mostly you can tell with an in hand inspection, but not always. Sometimes, there just still is some doubt, and I'd like to know if there is an absolutely surefire way to tell: this silver was cast, or this silver was die struck. With a microscope, chemical analysis, whatever. Just to be certain in those rare cases where there are more questions than answers, more red flags than good signs. Thanks, Mark IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 02-24-2016 03:22 PM
There may be some kind of scientific way to tell, though I cannot think of one. My only thought is to use a magnifier with a strong raking light (light coming from a sharp side angle) to try to see any porosity. I would not think this would be very reliable though, given that jewelers and silver smiths normally work a casting by burnishing and polishing and engraving and such that would likely hide such porosity. IP: Logged |
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Mark4321 Posts: 11 |
posted 02-24-2016 04:04 PM
quote: Ah OK? Interesting tip, that raking light.... Thanks for that. Yeah, and then there's this vacuum casting and all, they're getting better and better at faking rings. And then another common practice is to age them artificially with acids and say they were 'ground found'... It's incredible, from 100's to many 1000's of dollars worth of rings are sold that might be a 20-50 dollar piece with a little bit of extra 'treatment'... And some are just so unusual that even the top expert collectors are sorta stumped. Of course, in that case you just stay well away, but it'd be neat to proof it for sure and expose the cheats... Mark IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 02-26-2016 11:08 AM
Could you please share some photos of these rings you have in your collection? I am sure everyone would like to see some of your favorites - I know I would. There are instructions for posting photos in the link just under the big green box at the top of the page. IP: Logged |
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Mark4321 Posts: 11 |
posted 02-26-2016 06:45 PM
quote: OK sure, lemme see if I can figure this out. I will post one original and one that tried to be an original: old, but not period, ie cast. This here is the fake: 1.  http://www.smpub.com/ubb/ssfgallery/displayimage.php?pid=501 This the original: 2. [This message has been edited by Mark4321 (edited 02-26-2016).] IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 02-27-2016 01:06 PM
Thanks, Mark! These are interesting, could you please share some information on the originals, when and where they were being made, a bit of their history? There seem to have been a number of different groups that used them, two that come to mind right away are the German Totenkopfrings and the Yale University Skull and Bones Secret Society, but I am sure there are many others. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 02-27-2016 01:52 PM
This is an example of a die for a ring:  IP: Logged |
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Mark4321 Posts: 11 |
posted 02-27-2016 03:26 PM
quote: Very interesting, thanks for that Scott! I have seen some of these before... IP: Logged |
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Mark4321 Posts: 11 |
posted 02-27-2016 03:44 PM
quote: Hi Kimo, well, as I understand it, it's like this: the whole idea of skull rings (which is my main area of collecting, but not exclusively) comes from the concept of 'Memento Mori' - Remember Death - so basically similar to Carpe Diem, meaning we are all mortal, we will all die one day, life is short so make the most of it and live it well. We all tend to ponder this occasionally, but a Memento Mori ring reminds you of this every day. I for example wear mine all the time (another one, not pictured here.). It has this inscription: 'MMM' behind the Skull, standing for 'Memento Mori Mark', which is engraved inside the band. The Yale boys wear them for similar reasons, I believe. So did WW2 soldiers, that is true. They knew they might never come back and die in a minute. The fake ring? Very hard to say. Might be from the USA for all I know, probably late 40's to early 50's but most definitely a post-war ring. The Original is likely a German Totenkopfring, worn by a soldier in battle. The story that comes with it is it was found on the Eastern front (Kurland). But you never buy the story, just the item. Which in this case is unquestionable real, die struck, two piece construction: 800 silver band, brass head with silver plating. Interesting piece of background on this particular (my favorite) pattern: these were made from WW1 onwards: WW1, in between the wars, and WW2. They were private purchase, so anybody (soldier, peasant, housewife) could buy them, usually by mail order. But the bets are on that most of them were worn by soldiers...though there can be no guarantee made for this: might have been anyone. So you could not sell this as a guaranteed WW2 ring worn by a German soldier in battle (though it very likely is). Here is more background on the Memento Mori concept: skull rings have been worn for that purpose since a long time, at least 100 years back, probably a whole lot more:
I hope this isn't too much information, you can tell I'm a nerd!  Mark IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 02-28-2016 04:10 PM
Thanks, for sharing, Mark. This is an interesting part of collecting jewelry. As you say the memorial rings have been around a long time as have been memorial broaches and other kinds of jewelry. Most people today find it a bit morbid, but there are some collectors who find it fascinating and a great specialization in silver and other metals and materials. Thanks again for sharing with everyone. IP: Logged |
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Mark4321 Posts: 11 |
posted 02-28-2016 05:01 PM
quote: My pleasure. As you can tell, at least I find it highly interesting: I'm a complete nerd in this! Real pieces of history, often with stories -sometimes real- attached. And the fact that there are a lot of fakes makes it in a way only more interesting to me. Which is why I'm here. So still, if you can think of any other ways that a cast ring can be told from a die struck item, please let me know! Thanks a lot to you and Scott, Mark IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 02-29-2016 03:42 PM
One possible way to confirm a die-struck ring that may not always work but it might in some cases - would be to see if you can detect any evidence of the soldering line in the shank where the ends were bent around a mandrel and soldered together. It could be a faint line or a slight difference in color or wear or such. Do you have any die-struck examples where you can see a fine line of silver solder on the shank? IP: Logged |
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Vetdaddy Posts: 70 |
posted 03-02-2016 09:15 PM
Marc4321, thanks for the OP on this topic. Been quiet, but have following. Very interesting your collecting arena. I have picked up a few pointers and you have sparked my interest. Best wishes in your endeavors! IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 850 |
posted 03-03-2016 05:49 AM
quote: Very interesting post, I too am not aware of any testing to know if metal is cast or die struck. My guess is that if one used high powered magnification, perhaps 30x and compared known struck to known cast you might be able to recognize the porosity in the cast metal... especially in background areas that are not polished or worn. The die above is I believe a "hob", i.e. the master that is used to impress the soft working die and then put away until that die is worn or broken. When it is used to make a new die. The hob is a positive and the dies are negative so that the ring metal fills the die and is positive. Also the hob is dead hard and the die is soft when it is impressed. After the die is made hard. IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 850 |
posted 03-03-2016 05:51 AM
quote: Very interesting post, I too am not aware of any testing to know if metal is cast or die struck. My guess is that if one used high powered magnification, perhaps 30x and compared known struck to known cast you might be able to recognize the porosity in the cast metal... especially in background areas that are not polished or worn. The die above is I believe a "hob", i.e. the master that is used to impress the soft working die and then put away until that die is worn or broken. When it is used to make a new die. The hob is a positive and the dies are negative so that the ring metal fills the die and is positive. Also the hob is dead hard and the die is soft when it is impressed. After the die is made hard. IP: Logged |
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Mark4321 Posts: 11 |
posted 03-03-2016 06:13 AM
quote: Absolutely Agleopar, I think it's also otherwise called a 'Master Die'. These were kept in a safe somewhere and only used to remake old, worn out dies... Yes, I hear that if a ring is broken open or if you're willing to cut it in half (usually an empathetic no!!), then you can probably make out the difference under great magnification. Maybe. Then again, the experts -collectors with like 30 years experience, and those who still use the old production methods- can nearly always tell, at least via in-hand inspection. But SOMETIMES... there are these cases, these red flags, but non-conclusive... then we just say: not something I'd want in my collection, then we steer clear. But it would be sweet to be able to prove the fakes 110% wrong... Some rings go at many 1000's of USD, and are almost certainly fakes! Mark IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 03-03-2016 08:48 AM
The die making process..... IP: Logged |
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Mark4321 Posts: 11 |
posted 03-03-2016 04:47 PM
quote: Very interesting idea! :-) IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 850 |
posted 03-04-2016 03:16 PM
IP: Logged |
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