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Author Topic:   Replating of old silver ?
cbc58

Posts: 333
Registered: Aug 2008

iconnumber posted 12-21-2016 04:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cbc58     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I came across this spoon and was looking at the hallmarks and it looks to me like someone has replated this with some kind of wipe-on treatment. It looks "too good" and shiny to me for it's age. Is there a way to remove this (if indeed I am correct in my assumption), and get it back to original condition? I can see doing this replating on silverplate, but not sterling. I am a purist. Kills it for me and would be curious if others feel the same way.

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cbc58

Posts: 333
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iconnumber posted 12-22-2016 08:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cbc58     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Perhaps replating is the incorrect term when going over sterling. there appears to be a product out there called "Medallion" which you can wipe on a silver item to refinish it.

In keeping on the theme of trying to improve the appearance of a piece, has anyone here tried to do their own buffing using a buffing wheel? This would be to try and remove fine scratches.


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asheland

Posts: 935
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iconnumber posted 12-22-2016 09:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Using a buffing wheel absolutely ruins the piece. You might as well melt it down. frown

As for the piece shown, it looks 100% original to me. What exactly is it that you are seeing?

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 12-22-2016 10:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It could be that someone has already buffed you spoon to make it look new or as you noticed too good.

I would not seem to be logical to wipe on a silver coating on sterling. I have seen the wipe on done on inexpensive silverplated trays. I does appear to bond with copper so that the tray looks uniform, but my understanding is that the silver comes off after several polishes. The whole process is cheap enough that if one wants to do it again they can at low cost.

I agree with Asheland that buffing silver is not a good idea.

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cbc58

Posts: 333
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iconnumber posted 12-22-2016 11:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cbc58     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Asheland - I am seeing a shinier than normal appearance on the marks and handle than I have seen with other pieces.

Appreciate the feedback on buffing.

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asheland

Posts: 935
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iconnumber posted 12-22-2016 10:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The hallmarks pictured and surrounding area look 100% original to me.

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cbc58

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iconnumber posted 12-23-2016 06:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cbc58     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
How would one go about removing (DIY) scratches from silver? I am asking as it specifically relates to spoons. I see some available that are "professionally polished" and assume they use some kind of special device to polish without causing damage.

I had thought this might be a buffing wheel... anyone know? Tks.

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asheland

Posts: 935
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iconnumber posted 12-23-2016 09:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Those minute scratches are the patina and they help the piece, you want them. "Professionally polished" is bad.

A gentle hand polish with a soft cloth is all that is necessary. Anything further is damaging the piece.

The surface on the piece pictured above is exactly what you want.

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cbc58

Posts: 333
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iconnumber posted 12-24-2016 09:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cbc58     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is a spoon that has a couple of long scratches on it. To me, as someone who is just starting to collect spoons, the scratches make it much less desirable to the point where I have to ask myself how much of a discount should be applied to it vs. a spoon without the scratches. I understand that valuations are not something done on this forum, but how would someone who collects spoons view this defect vs. one that doesn't have it? I am a passive collector of old glass paperweights and know that there is a level of wear that is acceptable, but once it gets beyond a certain point the value of the weight can drop by up to 90%. Is there a percentage deduction one would take on something like this? It's deep enough and into the monogram somewhat that buffing might impact the design/monogram. I suspect many collectors wouldn't want it at all but someone like me just starting out might.

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asheland

Posts: 935
Registered: Nov 2003

iconnumber posted 12-25-2016 01:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree, it would be nice if those scratches weren't there, but given how excellent that patina is, and the fact it has that 100% original engraving, I personally wouldn't mind those scratches all that much.

There is a point where scratches can be a problem, but those aren't all that bad in my opinion.

Opinions vary, I understand that. I would buy that spoon given those scratches, however if buffed, I would be far less likely to want it then.

I think that terrific patina is one of the reasons I am so forgiving of those scratches. If buffed, that patina is the first thing to go, then all you have are those scratches and an unnaturally shiny spoon.

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asheland

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iconnumber posted 12-25-2016 01:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is my earliest piece, and my most expensive purchase to date.

It's by Jeremy Johnson, London, 1642. 100% original and has this noticeable scratch right in the center of the bowl.

It not only doesn't bother me, but I actually welcome it.


You see that scratch confirms my very spoon is the one pictured in Norman Gask's book on English spoons!

It's part of the history of this spoon, and was there in the 1920's, who knows how old that scratch really is?

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cbc58

Posts: 333
Registered: Aug 2008

iconnumber posted 12-26-2016 10:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cbc58     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That's a beautiful old spoon. Appreciate the feedback on the scratches/imperfections.

I wonder what type of production capacity a silversmith had back in the late 1700's. How many spoons did they manufacture in any given year. I am guessing that most spoons were cast and then finished - and haven't delved into the way they are actually made - how much time it actually took (man hours) to make just one. If there was a lot of work put into the production of just one spoon - then forks must have been more labor intensive.

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cbc58

Posts: 333
Registered: Aug 2008

iconnumber posted 12-26-2016 11:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cbc58     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is a silverplate glass-lined bowl that I inherited mfg. by Barker-Ellis. There is an area of discoloration that is not tarnish that will not come off. I have tried most everything to remove it to the point where the plating is starting to wear off in a couple of tiny spots.

It almost appears as if this was subject to heat or near a fire, but there is no history of a fire in my family. All I can think of is that it might have been sitting in a spot of direct sun, or stored somehow where heat concentrated on this area. No idea of how it happened or if indeed this is indicative of heat damage. Anyone ever seen this happen before and would there be a way to clean it without replating?

This is my favorite bowl and very well made.

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 12-26-2016 09:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That is a pretty bowl. Could the strange color come from a varnish that had been applied and had worn off most places. Varnish does yellow with age.
I have soaked silver in hot water to aid in the removal of varnish.

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ahwt

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iconnumber posted 12-26-2016 10:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That is a pretty bowl. Could the strange color come from a varnish that had been applied and had worn off most places. Varnish does yellow with age.
I have soaked silver in hot water to aid in the removal of varnish.

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cbc58

Posts: 333
Registered: Aug 2008

iconnumber posted 12-27-2016 07:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cbc58     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi - It's a blackish color and it looks like it was in or near heat. It was wrapped in an anti-tarnish bag when I received it. It's not yellowish and the mark does not come off with polishing. Guess it could be some form of chemical reaction to something and am wondering if anyone has had this happen to one of their pieces of silverplate. Thanks for the response.

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asheland

Posts: 935
Registered: Nov 2003

iconnumber posted 12-28-2016 12:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That color is odd. Not sure what to tell you on that. Do you use Wright's silver cream?

As for lacquered pieces, I bought a large bowl recently that was lacquered and acetone removed it. Do this outside or in a well ventilated area as the fumes are a bit much!

As to spoons made in the 1700's and earlier, they would be forged. (your new book will explain this well) We have a few terrific silversmiths that are members here that have demonstrated how it's done.

Maybe Scott can link the thread by Fred I believe it's called "spoon making sequence"?

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cbc58

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Registered: Aug 2008

iconnumber posted 12-28-2016 02:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cbc58     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tks. I'd like to ask another question regarding removing dents from the bowl of a spoon. I bought one at auction that has fairly good sized dents in the bowl. I'd like to try and smooth them out myself and think that there might be a way to do this some how that people who have been around old spoons know how to do.

The dents are all mostly facing upward into the bowl from the underside, and if I was to find something that fit the natural curve of the bowl that was hard enough - perhaps lightly tapping might smooth it out. Anyone tried that or have a trick to smoothing out dents?

Tks

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

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Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 12-28-2016 02:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"Spoon making sequence"

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Kimo

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iconnumber posted 12-28-2016 04:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It would be very easy to wind up making the problem worse rather than better if you try to hammer out the dents in your spoon yourself. You need the right tools and a great deal of experience to see good results. A dent can stretch silver a bit and so just tapping it back may not result in a smooth repair. Silver smiths take many years of training to be able to do their work well.

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cbc58

Posts: 333
Registered: Aug 2008

iconnumber posted 12-28-2016 08:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cbc58     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Martin:
"Spoon making sequence"

Thank you for the link. If this is how they made spoons back then -- it shows the level of skill it takes to make a smooth bowl and uniform piece. Add any design or embellishment to the item and you appreciate them even more. If that's what it takes to make a spoon - imagine the effort to make a fork with evenly spaced tines. I would assume making a fork is harder - though I could be incorrect.

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asheland

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iconnumber posted 12-29-2016 09:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree with Kimo, it's preferable to let a skilled silversmith do it. We have a few on this site that might do repairs?

If you want to attempt pressing out a dent, I would recommend using wood, and a soft wood at that. I've had success using wood for dents.

Thanks Scott for posting that link!

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asheland

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iconnumber posted 12-29-2016 10:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is a video you should enjoy:

Fletcher Robinson

(I'm not exactly sure how to make it into a link)

And I couldn't agree more, the skill and level of work to make an item is impressive!
Raising a bowl is the most impressive to me.

Making an 18th Century Sterling Silver Jefferson Cup

Silversmith of Williamsburg

smile

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cbc58

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iconnumber posted 12-29-2016 11:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cbc58     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That Fletcher Robinson video is great - thank you. Considering there was no electricity back around 1800 - the craftsmanship of older items is even more impressive.

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asheland

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iconnumber posted 12-29-2016 03:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Indeed it was very labour intensive back in the day!

Thanks again Scott for your help with the links! smile

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ahwt

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iconnumber posted 12-29-2016 06:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There is a dealer at the monthly antique show in Atlanta that takes dents out of silver. I think he used to have a silver plating business, but in any event he knows how to do it. He starts at the edges of the dent and gradually works around the circumstance of the dent toward the center. He uses a wooden dowel with a rounded end to push on the silver.
I have tried it on some very small dents and this process did work for me on sterling. I have never tried to work on silver plate as I think that would be harder to do.

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cbc58

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iconnumber posted 12-29-2016 08:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cbc58     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the info. I tried a little bit today to gently smooth some dents out with the back of a rounded wooden handle from a tool in my toolbox. The bowl is very, very thin material and it almost looks like someone tried to do it before and stretched the silver making it thinner in spots. Learning as I go and now know to ask more questions when buying something.

[This message has been edited by cbc58 (edited 12-29-2016).]

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cbc58

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iconnumber posted 12-30-2016 12:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cbc58     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Turns out the chair I am sitting in at the computer has finials at the top that have the exact same contour of a spoon bowl. Some light pressure and trial and error seem to be taking the major lumps out...

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agleopar

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Registered: Jun 2004

iconnumber posted 12-30-2016 10:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agleopar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Cbc58, good eye on the chair, using it for dent removal! It might go better with a broom handle - something not the same size but a little smaller can be more effective.
But the chair is good because it is steady and a broom would have to be held in a vise.

Dents are not difficult usually but when I get spoons or holloware with dents that are done badly it can be more difficult because of collateral damage from the tool because it's too small or the wrong shape or it puts scratches in the silver when none were there before.

So my technique is to select the right shape/contour of the tool to fit comfortably, too big not good, too small not good. Then if the surface is original and unmarked I will take great care to protect the silver from the tool, iron - even wood can scratch. My #1 choice these days is polypropylene paper covering the tool. Back in the day, leather. Pushing out the dent is usually done with hand pressure but if a hammer is needed, again polypropylene. Actually walrus hide was the best! And if those won't shift it hammering with polished steel but that would mean surface finishing and that would mean the original surface would be compromised.

I realize all of the above is sort of vague but unless you could see it done there is no good way to describe it...

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agleopar

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iconnumber posted 12-30-2016 10:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agleopar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'd like to add that the Fletcher/Robinson video with David Beasley (I think I have his last name right) is spot on and you can't get better than that for proper English hot forged spoon. I was lucky to go 3 times to James Potter and Son, Clerkenwell, London in 1975 and be shown the exact same process. The only difference was potter did not use a press to sink the bowl or strike the drop and tip on the back of the bowl and top of the handle. He did it with a hammer.
American smiths cold forge. Tom at Old Newburyport Crafters, Peter Ericsson in Gardener MA and Fred Zwig on here will all argue with me that it's faster... but honestly they all make, hot or cold a spoon at about the same rate, approximately 1 per hour, finished!

Lastly, David above made a 30 oz spoon the size of a small oar - it may be the biggest spoon of proper hot forged English make. The bowl holds a pint! He started with a 50 oz ingot and it took him only a week!!

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adelapt

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iconnumber posted 09-21-2017 12:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for adelapt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Enjoyed the Fletcher Robinson clip very much thanks. But I'd have to take issue with the statement at the beginning, that the bar he started with was THIRTY troy ounces! Three I could believe...

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agphile

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iconnumber posted 09-21-2017 03:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I wrote the text below before I realised that Adelapt was referring to the film clip and not the giant spoon described by Agleopar, but I thought I would leave it up rather then delete, having gone to the trouble of writing it. My apologies for my dimness!

3 troy ounces might make a piece of soup ladle or basting spoon size. Agleopar was referring to a really massive object, far too big to be of any practical use (unless to row a boat), but a demonstration of the maker's skill. I have seen photos of such giant pieces being used as display items to advertise a silversmith's business. And I know of another silversmith who made one as his masterpiece to complete his apprenticeship, though I am not sure it was as big as the one under discussion here.

Of course, disproportionately more silver is needed for longer spoons because they will also be wider and of heavier gauge. Thus the workbook of an early 20th century silversmith shows 10 troy ounces being needed for a dozen teaspoons and 30 troy ounces for a dozen tablespoons though the tablespoons may only be twice rather than thrice the length of the teaspoons.

PS Since spoons are made in dozens, I wonder whether this is where the 30 ounce reference in the film clip comes from, in which case the ingot would actually have been one twelfth of 30 ounces.

[This message has been edited by agphile (edited 09-21-2017).]

[This message has been edited by agphile (edited 09-21-2017).]

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jandcr

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iconnumber posted 12-02-2017 07:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jandcr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Modern silver jewelry is usually over plated with a thin coating of iridium or rhodium I believe. That is why new silver jewelry does not tarnish like tradition sterling silver. Is it possible someone had this done to avoid having to clean it periodically?

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