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tline3open  New hallmark on 18th century, Clog Clasp?

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Author Topic:   New hallmark on 18th century, Clog Clasp?
aokart

Posts: 15
Registered: Jan 2017

iconnumber posted 01-14-2017 01:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for aokart     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello everyone.

I'm a stained and etched glass artist since the early 70's. Still going strong. My metal detecting hobby has brought me to many sites and many incredible finds. Research and history are among my favorites.

The silver clog clasp was dug in Cape May county. The hallmark is unique to those of the Syng family hallmarks. Besides the two PS hallmarks, one being cocked on an angle to allow for the little scene of an Indian with full headdress sporting a deer skull topped tomahawk standing over a rabbit or pig. Directly behind him is the silhouette of a horse. There looks to be lettering in the incuse area behind the Indians back. Not sure what is going on in the far right corner.

Any input is most welcome in identifying the hallmark to a smith.

Thanks,
Art

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Scott Martin
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iconnumber posted 01-14-2017 11:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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agphile

Posts: 798
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iconnumber posted 01-14-2017 06:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Fascinating to see this little item. It is charming. I hadn’t come across clog clasps before despite collecting English silver for over 30 years so my comments are likely to betray ignorance rather than prove helpful. I thought the engraved tulip suggested late 17th century (tulipmania time) but a search revealed a few English examples with this sort of engraving that could be dated by their marks from c.1720 to c.1800 and no clog clasps (whether silver or the more common base metal) that could be confidently dated earlier than the 18th century. It looks as if naïve floral engraving persisted for longer on these everyday objects than on most silver of the period.

Without the engraving the date might be anywhere from 1700 to 1850 but I think such engraving is unlikely to be 19th century. I can’t help with the maker’s mark on your piece and saying 18th century doesn’t narrow the date range much when looking for a likely candidate. If I had to plump for a likely date after looking at the very few English comparators, I might suggest c.1730-1750 but you are probably ahead of me on all this.

The scene beside the marks is intriguing. Odd to put it on the back if it is meant to be decorative. I can’t make out whether it is engraved or stamped. If engraved it might be a later embellishment after the clasp had lost its original purpose. If it was stamped with the marks I wonder whether it might actually have been meant to represent a silversmith with his hammer, whatever it now looks like. Or might the clasp have been made from a recycled bit of silver that already contained tis scene?

Sorry to have rambled but at least it shows you have caught my interest. Thanks for that.


[This message has been edited by agphile (edited 01-14-2017).]

[This message has been edited by agphile (edited 01-14-2017).]

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Scott Martin
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iconnumber posted 01-14-2017 11:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
????

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aokart

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iconnumber posted 01-15-2017 12:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for aokart     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you for noticing my post, and your reply. It is well received and most welcome.

It is a unique piece. I'm glad I caught a glimpse of the barely noticeable scene. It made me laugh. I automatically though of someone young making this silver clog with its Indian scene. The hallmark resembles Philip Syng Jr's hallmark in a way, but with its slant and openness its new. Possibly an apprentice making his own personalized clasp, or just killing time. The second PS hallmark is slanted, it was done purposely to allow for room of the artwork I would think.

I do not know if this was stamped or engraved. Not sure what to look for.

Using the other relics found at the site as a timeline, coins being the easiest with date on board. The site ranges from 1697 to 1817. The 1720's to 1800's being the busiest.

Philip Syng Sr arrived in Cape May County, NJ in the 1720's. I'm sure his son Philip Syng Jr was with him and apprenticing at that time. This would place two of the smiths in the same county where it was found.

Thanks for opening new avenues of thought.

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aokart

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iconnumber posted 01-15-2017 09:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for aokart     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Scott, It looks spot on. I will get an endoscope on it today to see if I can get a cleaner closeup.

[This message has been edited by aokart (edited 01-15-2017).]

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Kimo

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iconnumber posted 01-16-2017 02:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Repurposing silver was very common at that point in time - either cutting and hammering an older piece, or melting and casting an older piece. Yours seems to be the former. It could have been cut from a plate or a can or a bowl or something that had a coat of arms or a crest engraved on it. The smith would have simply turned the piece over to make this object and so he or the retailer or the owner could crudely engrave the tulip design on the front. It was not done by an experienced engraver. In which reference book are you finding the Philip Syng Sr. and Jr. makers' marks being illustrated?

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aokart

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iconnumber posted 01-16-2017 05:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for aokart     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you for your helpful information.

I agree using scraps and the re-purpose of any silver objects makes sense. I re-purpose lead in my field of work.

The second hallmark was tilted by the smith to make room for the the smiths artwork, very intentionally done.

Hoping to find if this is Philip Syng Jr's or his sons hallmark.

This site has a few of the hallmarks.
WEV's American Silversmiths - Index of Initial Marks - P

Best regards,
Art

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agleopar

Posts: 850
Registered: Jun 2004

iconnumber posted 01-16-2017 10:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for agleopar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is a very neat little item! And it has all the bells and whistles!!
I am not an expert in any of the one of the departments this lives in but as a maker it has earmarks that sing to me.

First the form and making. The shape is simple but has a sophistication of its time. The engraving is also simple but again has elements of its time. The wiggle work diagonals and of course the tulip.

The marks are a bit of a mystery. The 3 books I looked in did not make me feel confident that it was a Syng mark. The stamping of them seems very much typical of a smith double marking to bump up its authenticity. The placement is not unusual for a small object but I doubt he was placing them to avoid a design.

That mystery design I think is the remainder impression of the coin he made this from. I would look at period coins and see if you can find the image on a back or front that matches.

All in all I think it might be earlier than you are assuming and the maker obscure and or continental. Also turning it upside down you get a possible SJ or GJ - neither likely but... I'd like to think it is Syng but the funny crook in the middle of the S and no serifs on the P?
Good luck, I hope to hear a affirmative identification soon from some of the pros here!

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Kimo

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iconnumber posted 01-16-2017 11:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Agleopar's thought that this was something made by the maker hammering a coin and then cutting it to shape and with the lion rampant being a relic of the design on the coin sounds very likely. I should have thought of that possibility. I remember seeing several Texas Ranger's stars and sheriff's stars from the 1800s and very early 1900s from the old west that had been made in the same way - in those cases they were hammered out of a large Mexican silver coin and cut with fretwork with engraving on the front and much of the original coin's design was still visible on the back of the badges.

[This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 01-16-2017).]

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aokart

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iconnumber posted 01-16-2017 12:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for aokart     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you for your reply.

I believe the wiggle lines on the front with the tulip represent a plowed field. As to a coin bearing this small motif there are none that I know of. I have dug coins from around the world and studied such. I know of nothing this small on a coin. The entire design is within the confines of a 1/8 inch area, that would leave 1/32 of an inch per design. I believe there to be 4 designs total with possible writing in the incuse area of the Indians back. There is allot going on in a micro area. As to the hallmark reading upside down to the scene, I would think reading left to right everything has its bottom margin with the design and hallmarks paving the way to there own relationship.

I'm with you, its not a known mark, if it is a Syng hallmark where do you start. The many other known hallmarks had to start somewhere. With Syng Sr. plying his craft here in Cape May for a number of years, and the relationship to Dr. Philip Syng Physick, in the Cape May area it seems the mystery deepens.

I on whole believe the little scene was created by a young smith intentionally. Whom is the big question, and the why opens many avenues of thought.

Thank you for your very helpful ideas.

Best regards,
Art

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Scott Martin
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iconnumber posted 01-16-2017 01:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Whether clog is a historically correct term ...I'm not so sure, but it certainly is how this item is described today.

At first, I was bothered by the flower's orientation. But after viewing numerous other clasps the horizontal orientation of the flower seems typical. A pair of clasps might be orientated:

Also after viewing the marks and marking style of numerous other silver clasps the marking seems correct for an English clasp.

I do see a lion mark which should indicate a sterling standard but I am unable to decide which stance the lion is in.

I'd be more cautious about making attributions about the smith. Speculation on the Internet often gets warped into fake fact. And fake facts can kill true historical facts.

Have you researched the Cape May, NJ, historical property records? There might be info about a transplanted English farmer or farm hand that relates to where the clasp was found?

The Cape May Hall of Records has documents and volumes dating back to the 1690's.

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Scott Martin
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iconnumber posted 01-16-2017 02:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Did you GPS your find?

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aokart

Posts: 15
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iconnumber posted 01-16-2017 02:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for aokart     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes to the GPS.

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Scott Martin
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iconnumber posted 01-16-2017 02:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So what are the coordinates?

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aokart

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iconnumber posted 01-16-2017 03:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for aokart     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Scott, I hope you will understand that the integrity of the site must remain private for now. Art

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Polly

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iconnumber posted 01-16-2017 08:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
After standing on my head and staring at the images upside down, I'm not convinced it isn't GJ.

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ahwt

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iconnumber posted 01-17-2017 09:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The New York Times has an interesting article today;
Archaeologists and Metal Detectorists Find Common Ground.

It would seem that there is a natural identity of interest in these two groups and research certainly would benefit if they continue to nurture this relationship.

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Scott Martin
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iconnumber posted 01-17-2017 11:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I wonder why the Flower motif is so common?

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aokart

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Registered: Jan 2017

iconnumber posted 01-18-2017 09:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for aokart     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you for the article. Yes metal detectorists have been assisting Archies since the dawn of detecting. Our group has a few that travel the USA helping find artifacts from key places of interest for the archeologists.

quote:
Originally posted by ahwt:
The New York Times has an interesting article today;
Archaeologists and Metal Detectorists Find Common Ground.

It would seem that there is a natural identity of interest in these two groups and research certainly would benefit if they continue to nurture this relationship.


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aokart

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iconnumber posted 01-18-2017 09:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for aokart     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The flower motif is found on just about everything people touched. From sites dating back to the 17th century here in the USA. If it was popular over the big pond, it was popular here.

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aokart

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iconnumber posted 01-18-2017 09:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for aokart     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Figured out what was going on with the smiths design to the right of the horse. My drawing is crude but gives the general outline of a horse and rider.

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Kimo

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iconnumber posted 01-18-2017 10:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Or it might nothing? Sometimes people lie in a field and stare up at the clouds and sometimes you can "see" figures or animals or various other things by using your imagination, or they look at a potato chip and see the head of Abraham Lincoln or Jesus or whatever. This might be just some uneven metal that one can "see" all sorts of designs in it. It does not seem to be a hallmark or similar marking and I am not sure why a smith or retailer or owner would be likely to scratch some small design into the back of this.

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aokart

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iconnumber posted 01-18-2017 12:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for aokart     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So true, the eye of the beholder. I have spent many years deciphering bumps on relics.

I agree, no master silver smith would waste his time doodling on the back of a clog clasp. A young minded smith might. I'm a forth generation artist and spent many of hours doing just that on my works as a young apprentice.

A cowering animal, a fierce Indian, and the hero on a running horse to the rescue, a young story at that. My interpretation.

If you see nothing there but bumps I understand.

Best regards,
Art

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aokart

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iconnumber posted 01-19-2017 02:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for aokart     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

This is the best I can do with a close up picture. The head of the horse appears to have a bridal with rosette, and reins. I can see the face and body outline not sure of the arms and leg placements, just to worn but a tail is visible.

I have contacted the Boston Museum, and Philadelphia Museum mostly to get any feedback on the makers mark. That was the main reason for posting here. The little designs were a gift. If provenance can be proven this will definitely be in a museum.

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cbc58

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iconnumber posted 01-19-2017 09:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cbc58     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Maybe this is one for History Detectives on PBS...

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Scott Martin
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iconnumber posted 01-19-2017 10:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Apophenia - the experience of seeing meaningful patterns or connections in random or meaningless data. The term was coined by neurologist Klaus Conrad and defined as the "unmotivated seeing of connections."

Pareidolia - a type of apophenia, which is a more generalized term for seeing patterns in random data. Some common examples are seeing a likeness of Jesus in the clouds or an image of a man on the surface of the moon.

An online article

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agleopar

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iconnumber posted 01-19-2017 03:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agleopar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A thought on the little horse and rider. Could it be the remains of a punched mark? The scale is so small it would not have been done as a one off. There is no silver with designs this small but the carving of punches did work in this size.

I go back to the original piece of silver might have had this stamped on it... Trouble is Tardy only has Russia and Finland with horse and rider marks...

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