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Author Topic:   Hi. New member. Wish to learn about silver items I have.
sonababy

Posts: 14
Registered: Jun 2017

iconnumber posted 06-15-2017 02:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sonababy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi,
My name is Sue. This is an awesome forum. I am new to collecting. I would love to learn more.

A family member has recently acquired silver items that I would like to learn more about. I appreciate any information you can provide.

(1) A beautiful spoon with a windmill, barn, bull/cow, trees and birds in the center of the spoon and intricate leaves and flowers around it to create a slotted spoon. Here are two pictures -

There are inscriptions on the spoon that I can see. I see "832". Then there is a galloping horse with its right side showing and its left leg in front, perhaps drawing a carriage. Next there is the head and neck of a girl in a circle, wearing a hat with her left cheek showing. Next there is the letter "M" in a circle. There is something else which I cannot make out. I am in the process of getting a magnifying glass. Here is a picture -

Can you please tell me about this piece?

(2) This is a tray that holds salt and pepper or oil and vinegar bottles. The inscription underneath has a prominent lion rampant (lion on hind legs) in a circle. It has an upward curved long tongue, a tail that looks like a slightly slanted "S" and its right leg raised and bent at the knee. Its right arm is higher than the left. Below that the inscription says -
REPRODUCTION
OLD SHEFFIELD PLATE
MADE IN ENGLAND.

One side has the number "21" on it.
The tray has flowers at each corner and in the center of each side (8 in total). Unfortunately, the bottles are missing.
I thought old sheffield plate is copper with silver plate, however, the lion rampant is a mark of Irish 0.925 sterling silver. Is this item silver plated or sterling silver?

Here are pictures -

(3) Set of flatware with "GN" in a circle, followed by "K" in a circle, then "GERO" and "90" in a circle. From searching the forum prior to posting, I gather this is designed by Georg Nilsson and manufactured in 1944. Also that it is silver plated. Is this correct? I had hoped it would be sterling silver. Here is a picture -

(4) A small spoon with the words "Maranatha Kerk" and a church carved into the handle. I gather Maranatha is a church but I am not sure which one this spoon refers to. I could not find any info on the internet. Is this spoon plated or sterling? Here is a picture -

Thanks for your help.
Sue.

[This message has been edited by sonababy (edited 06-15-2017).]

[This message has been edited by sonababy (edited 06-15-2017).]

[This message has been edited by sonababy (edited 06-15-2017).]

[This message has been edited by sonababy (edited 06-15-2017).]

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Scott Martin
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iconnumber posted 06-15-2017 09:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Welcome.

To get things started see:

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Scott Martin
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iconnumber posted 06-15-2017 04:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I tried to make the marks clearer...perhaps you can do a better image?

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sonababy

Posts: 14
Registered: Jun 2017

iconnumber posted 06-15-2017 04:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sonababy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Scott, thanks for replying. I will get a higher res picture with a different phone and post it here.

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agphile

Posts: 798
Registered: Apr 2008

iconnumber posted 06-15-2017 06:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
These look like Dutch hallmarks for 1922.The maker's mark will be the blob on the extreme left. I do not have references for Dutch marks so probably won't be able to help further even with a sharper photo. I had thought the spoon would probably be Dutch even before Scott made the marks clearer. It is a typical decorative spoon from that part of the world.

On item 2, the lion rampant here is not a hallmark but a trade mark though I am afraid I do not know for which company. The item will be silver-plated.

On item 4, with no hallmarks and nothing to say 925 or sterling, the spoon is pretty certainly silver-plated. Makers of solid silver items tend not to disguise the composition of the item. I assume it is Dutch. There seems to be a Maranatha Kerk in several Dutch towns (and in S Africa, where I guess it serves Afrikaans speakers there). A quick google search was no help in trying to match one of them to the representation on your spoon.

Sorry if this is not a lot of help.

[This message has been edited by agphile (edited 06-15-2017).]

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agphile

Posts: 798
Registered: Apr 2008

iconnumber posted 06-16-2017 08:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Perhaps it would help to explain a bit more about the marks on your first, fancy pierced spoon. From left to right I see:

A blob that might be the maker’s mark,

A lion passant in a hexagonal cartouche indicating second standard (833/1000) silver,

Minerva’s Head in a round cartouche (the mark should include a small letter to identify the assay town),

Date letter M for 1922.

I assumed the mark above the date letter reads something like 83(?), repeating the fineness of the silver. If it is actually something different (SJ?) it could be the maker’s mark.

And I should have added for item 3 that these will be silver-plated as indicated by the lack of specific silver marks.

[This message has been edited by agphile (edited 06-16-2017).]

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Kimo

Posts: 1627
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 06-16-2017 10:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Agphile, as always, has given you some very good information. Just to add a tiny bit more, your item 1 is .830 silver which means that it is an alloy of metal that includes 83 percent silver and 17 percent other metals such as copper and perhaps some others. By comparison, Sterling silver is a metal alloy that has 92.5 percent silver and 7.5 percent copper and perhaps other metals. This reticulated spoon appears to be the type that was (and still is) commonly sold to tourists as a souvenir since it includes a hodgepodge of popular things a tourist would see when touring the country.
Because it is reticulated it would be good to use in a small bowl of nuts or after dinner mints or the like.

Item number 2 is definitely silver plated. It may or may not have a copper base metal under the silver plating as it says it is a reproduction. Real Sheffield plate as you correctly point out would have been made from a sandwich of two thin sheets of silver alloy around a thicker inner core sheet of copper and welded together by high pressure before stamping it into the shape. Is there any area on the tray that is worn though the silver plate where you can see the inner core metal? It might be the old style Sheffield construction since they make a point of saying it is a reproduction of Sheffield plate, but not necessarily since it would be cheaper to make using the electroplating method. As for the lion rampant, if you do a quick search for British hallmarks and look at the Glasgow hallmark for that city you will see that the style is quite different. British hallmarks are very exact including the shape of the indented field around the icon. There are no generalities and if there is even a small difference in design due to anything other than being worn or a die strike that is slightly at an angle then it is not a British hallmark. Overall, this manufacturer's marking appears to my eye to not have very much age to it.

3. Yes this is definity silver plate.

4. Your Marantha Kerk spoon would be silver plate. This is another example of a souvenir for tourists who visited this particular church. I do not know where this church is located and Agphile points out there are multiple churches with this name and so finding out which one would likely entail your going on line and finding photos of each one and comparing the photos to the portrayal of the church on the top of your spoon. Normally these kinds of souvenirs tried to succeed in creating at least the general outline and main features of the building so tourists could recall the church when they looked at their spoon.

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sonababy

Posts: 14
Registered: Jun 2017

iconnumber posted 06-16-2017 02:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sonababy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you very much Agphile, Kimo and Scott.

The mystery of the first spoon has been solved. It is indeed Dutch. The date stamp is "M" in a circle (the right most mark). Only one question remains - if the year of manufacture was 1922 or 1947 since both use the letter "M". I am leaning towards it being 1947.

On the left there is a lion passant facing right. That helped me determine that it was Dutch since the British marks have the lion facing left. As required between 1814 and 1953, just below the lion, there is a "2" indicating it is standard mark silver with a stamp of 832 above the other hallmarks. 1953 onwards this number format was changed to roman numerals and the requirement became to have at least 0.925 purity for first standard and 0.833 for second standard. This confirms the date of manufacture to be before 1953. Was there a purity requirement prior to 1953 or just that the item needed to indicate silver content, as this one does.

On the left of the lion but within the same hallmark is a key, indicating that the item is for export and 2/3 duty restitution upon export. This was effective between 1853 and 1953.

The middle mark is a Minerva's head duty mark. What did this mean? Was it that the item was legally manufactured and duty/taxes had been paid on it?. The helmet on the Minerva head contains "M" which signifies regional assay office Schoonhoven (closed in 1987).

Below all these marks, right at the edge, abutting the border of the center scenery there is a maker's mark of "<N10". The sideways triangle is solid. Between 1944 and 1951, this was the mark used by Niekerk Groothandel in Gouden en Zilveren Werken formely known as; J. Niekerk b.v.( or Fa. Gebr. Niekerk/Firm brothers Niekerk). Reference: Dutch and Schoonhoven Silver Marks

Do you know if this manufacturer was producing silver items in 1922? If not, then the year of manufacture has to be 1947.


As for item (2), the lion rampant is indeed a manufacturer/designer's mark. Agphile, thank you for that lead. Kimo, indeed the lion rampant hallmark is never in a circle. The mark belongs to Charles Howard Collins from Birmingham, England. Was he a maker or designer or both?

There is a bit of copper showing at a couple of spots but not a lot. I can now see a seam along some parts of the edge where two layers have been joined. These two layers (at least along the edge) are very thick. Does that imply that thick a layer of silver all over? If so, it seems pointless to plate a thin layer of copper with this much silver. The other question is year of manufacture. There is a "21" in the middle of one edge which I do not know the significance of.

(4) The Maranatha Kerk spoon has what appears to be a maker's mark on the back of the handle. It looks like "OEME" followed by another letter (perhaps an "A") or a symbol. I have not found anything in my research thus far.

Once again, thank you for sharing your expertise. I have thoroughly enjoyed the exercise. I wish I had other items to research. I hope I can help others on this site.

I have researched 24 small souvenir spoons as well. Many of these I could not find information about. Is this site only for silver items or are you ineterested in other metals too?

Sue.

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 06-17-2017 09:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
An internet search of “Charles Howard Collins from Birmingham, England” shows that he was classified as a student maker in 1890 and also used CHC inside a rectangle as a mark as early as 1889. The mark CHC&S was registered in 1904 so he must have brought his son into his business.

His firm appears to have been successful as quite of number of his silver items are on the market today.

Your tray is marked as a reproduction so I think Mr. Collins would not be considered the designer, but would be the maker. His company appears to have been large enough to have designers on his staff.

Your description of the layers of silver, copper and silver sounds like a description of Old Sheffield Plate (OSP) rather that an electroplated item. I did not realize that OSP was made that late, but then the piece is marked a reproduction of OSP.

The Forum does have a section for non-silver items also in the new members sections. Welcome to the Forum.

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sonababy

Posts: 14
Registered: Jun 2017

iconnumber posted 06-17-2017 11:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sonababy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks ahwt. This is an interesting journey.

Do you know when CHC used the lion rampant logo and when he switched to using "CHC". Or when he stopped manufacturing, would give a timeframe for when this item was produced.

There is a scratch on top which shows a non silver metal not as bright as copper but with the same hue. It appears that the silver plating is thinner on top than at the edges. Wonder if it is silver on the edges too. The tarnishing on the top and bottom makes it look like silver and the tray does not react to a magnet, which I realize does not guarantee that it is silver.

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
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iconnumber posted 06-17-2017 07:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I did not find out much more information on this company.

This information is from Grace's Guide to British Industry:

"C. H. Collins and Sons
of 47 and 48 Hockley Hill, Birmingham. (1922)
Ditto Address. Telephone: Northern 1815. Cables: "Snilloc, Birmingham". (1929)
1920 Patent - Improvements in necktie clips, trouser clips, stocking suspender clips and the like. [1]
1922 Listed Exhibitor - British Industries Fair. Erinoid Ladies' Handbag Frames, Collar Studs, Sleeve Links, Soft Collar Clips, Scarf Clips, Vest Buttons, Erinoid and Pearl Ladies' Girdles. (Stand No. E.26B) [2]
1929 Listed Exhibitor - British Industries Fair. Manufacturers of Collar Studs, Sleeve Links, etc., in Metal, Rolled Gold, Pearl. Also Novelties in Shingle Brushes, Powder and Compact Boxes. Birmingham Jewellers' and Silversmiths' Association Member. (Stand Nos. J.43 and J.54) [3]"

They were in business as late as 1929 as the article indicates. However, I could not find a reference that would help in dating your piece or when they started using the Lion mark.

Old Sheffield Plate used sterling silver as opposed to 100% silver on plated items. You could take it to a jeweler have have it tested non-destructively to see the type of plating used. If it is sterling on top of copper, Mr Collins used a process that I thought was phased out in the 1840s when electroplating became the plating method of choice.

[This message has been edited by ahwt (edited 06-17-2017).]

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Kimo

Posts: 1627
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 06-17-2017 11:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Wonder if it is silver on the edges too. The tarnishing on the top and bottom makes it look like silver and the tray does not react to a magnet, which I realize does not guarantee that it is silver.

Sheffield style silver plating usually had a thin edging of silver added to the edges to hide the inner copper core of the sandwich of silver/copper/silver when you look at the edges.

Magnet testing to determine if something is silver is normally pretty useless as silver plated flatware and hollowware tends to use other metals than iron or steel as the base metal.

Acid testing is also pretty useless since it the acid is only reacting to whatever metal is on the surface so even if there is a very thin layer of silver electroplated on a base metal the acid will only tell you that there is silver in the surface and not what is beneath. Acid testing does work if you damage your silver by cutting down into through the surface layer all the way down to the center of the metal but why would anyone want to damage their nice things just to determine if it is silver when 99.9 percent of the time solid silver is clearly marked as such while everything else, including your reproduction tray is not. If you have something that you are convinced is unmarked solid silver then the best way to tell without damaging it is to use the specific gravity method of testing. Some jewelers can do that for you for a fee but you have to make it very clear to them that you do not want them to be putting acid on your things as many of them will try to do so. Alternatively a few jewelers may have a Wavelength Dispersive X-Ray Fluorescence Analysis tester, but most do not since those testers are really expensive (think in the area of a fancy new car equivalent)

[This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 06-17-2017).]

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