posted 08-13-2018 03:51 PM            

I am looking for hallmark identification help regarding a musical snuff box that was crafted right around 1800 or so. I am very knowledgeable on early mechanical music pieces but not silver hallmarks and the hallmarks are different than I have seen prior. I included photos of the two hallmarks that are legible and also of the piece itself for perspective. The one mark appears to be a 16.e so maybe something related to the lothig purity standard?

Here is a closeup photo of two hallmarks

Here is a quick photo of the overall piece with the mechanical musical movement removed. I am servicing it right now.

Kind regards,

Troy Duncan, CPA, retired

[This message has been edited by tduncan069 (edited 08-13-2018).]

posted 08-13-2018 04:34 PM            

Welcome to the Silver Salon Forums. Good job with the photos. This is a site to share with others your passion about and/or to learn about silver. We know you as a seller. Sellers are welcome, unless their participation is solely because it is really business research.

It the above business research? We hope you are here with us to share objects that are not in your sales inventory. We look forward to seeing more of what might be in your non-sales or sold inventory.

Please tell us about what you hope to share and learn.

Thanks and welcome to the SSF

posted 08-13-2018 04:41 PM            

Kind regards,

Troy Duncan, CPA, retired

posted 08-13-2018 06:21 PM            

I don't recognize these marks. I am hoping someone does.

Troy is going to try and get clearer/closer photos. There are other marks, which he says are hard to photograph. One sounds like it may be "30".

Troy if you make a video of the box I'll be glad to mount it on our server and add it to this thread. I'm sure everyone would like to hear/see it play.

I think this might take some time...I'm looking forward to the outcome.

Troy I am really looking forward to what else you have to share.

posted 08-13-2018 07:48 PM            

An edited look at the marks:

posted 08-13-2018 07:51 PM            

My initial thought is these do not appear to be hallmarks or even solid silver markings but possibly silver plate marks which were all over the map in terms of what a maker might stamp on such wares. I may be mistaken, but this is my first impression. The Sheffield style of silver plating started around 1770 and was a method where two very thin sheets of silver were compressed around a central thicker layer of copper or similar metal to make a three layer sandwich that has the look and feel of solid silver. There were few rules in most countries on markings of such non-solid silver so makers were free to mark them in whatever way they liked and I am not sure there are many records today on silver plated wares compared to the large amount of records on markings on solid silver wares.

I cannot make out the box with three rows and letters and symbols but my guess is that would refer to the maker, or possibly the retailer. The possible 16.d or e marking looks like a 16.d marking to my eye on my computer screen. The only wild guess I have on what that may mean is 16 pennyweight. The d might refer to the denarious which was the Roman silver penny. There are 18.23 pennyweights of silver in 1 ounce of pure silver so that might be either a silver standard for solid silver if that is what this is, or a reference to the amount of silver used in plating a set number of these boxes or the amount of silver plating used in making a set amount of silver plated metal that would be the stock used for metal to be cut out of the larger sheet and soldered together to make these little cases.

posted 08-13-2018 08:39 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by dragonflywink:
Don't have time to dig around right now, but am 99% sure that those are old French silverplate marks (the square mark should contain the maker's initials, symbol, and the word 'DOUBLE') - if I recall correctly, put into use right around 1800...

~Cheryl

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posted 08-13-2018 09:17 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by dragonflywink:
The other mark is '16.E", it should indicate the quality of the plating, but darned if I can remember what 'E' stands for...

~Cheryl

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posted 08-13-2018 09:19 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Kimo:
I do not know the answer. Do you know where the mechanism was made? Perhaps that might give a clue.

My initial thought is these do not appear to be hallmarks or even solid silver markings but possibly silver plate marks which were all over the map in terms of what a maker might stamp on such wares. I may be mistaken, but this is my first impression. The Sheffield style of silver plating started around 1770 and was a method where two very thin sheets of silver were compressed around a central thicker layer of copper or similar metal to make a three layer sandwich that has the look and feel of solid silver. There were few rules in most countries on markings of such non-solid silver so makers were free to mark them in whatever way they liked and I am not sure there are many records today on silver plated wares compared to the large amount of records on markings on solid silver wares.

I cannot make out the box with three rows and letters and symbols but my guess is that would refer to the maker, or possibly the retailer. The possible 16.d or e marking looks like a 16.d marking to my eye on my computer screen. The only wild guess I have on what that may mean is 16 pennyweight. The d might refer to the denarious which was the Roman silver penny. There are 18.23 pennyweights of silver in 1 ounce of pure silver so that might be either a silver standard for solid silver if that is what this is, or a reference to the amount of silver used in plating a set number of these boxes or the amount of silver plating used in making a set amount of silver plated metal that would be the stock used for metal to be cut out of the larger sheet and soldered together to make these little cases.

I look forward to hearing from anyone who knows for sure what these markings are, or just hearing ideas of what they might be.

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posted 08-13-2018 09:41 PM            

From the 1899 'Markham's Hand Book to French Hall Marks on Gold and Silver Plate' (the info pertaining to these marks starts about halfway through the paragraph):

Naturally, when they were referring to 'plated goods', since it was too early for electroplate, it would have been fused plate (OSP) or close plate. Whenever I've seen these marks on pieces showing wear, it's been down to copper, indicating fused plate - fused plate was worked like solid silver, so if gilt, it would have been after production...

~Cheryl

posted 08-13-2018 10:49 PM            

Hopefully, someone with more knowledge will check in...

~Cheryl

posted 08-14-2018 02:23 PM            

You should check out my second post The longevity of sterling silver (case example) as it delves into more of the interesting sterling silver history of a piece that originally dates to the Napoleanic wars and the hallmarks support the story.

Thanks again for your insight Cheryl.

posted 08-15-2018 03:58 PM            

My gut feeling is that the 16.E mark is for gold plate; I could be wrong but why would an identical box bear marks for sterling silver along with the DOUBLE and 16E?

posted 08-15-2018 04:27 PM            

It would be fun to identify what the 16.E represents as there is nothing online discussing this mark. A fun historical mystery by chance?

posted 08-15-2018 08:48 PM            

Closer inspection suggest they are 3 differently made boxes:

posted 08-18-2018 12:40 AM            

The book excerpt I posted on French plating marks clearly states that plated goods will have "numerals indicating the quantity of gold or silver it contains", so one could assume that these marks were used on gold plated as well as silver plated wares, and at that time (pre electroplating), it would be referring to either fused or close plate (the latter much less likely). Fire-gilding would have been the method used for gilt silver at that time and don't believe it would have been considered 'plated'.

There was and still is fused gold plate, commonly referred to as 'rolled gold' (and later 'gold filled'), due to the process of rolling out the fused metals, and while it was more often done with copper or brass, sterling silver could certainly be used as the core. Given the other piece you show, believe yours is indeed most likely gold on silver fused plate. Will say that while you did mention that you were posting "the two hallmarks that are legible", it's generally a good idea to post pics of all marks found even if they are unclear, they are sometimes more clear on magnification, French hallmarks are also usually pretty consistent, so a comparison of shape and size to clear marks could be done, or different eyes might be able to see something you don't (and sometimes they're just hopeless, but it's worth a try).

Nice that French fused plate was marked, and I finally had a bit of time to poke through my files, and found the meaning of the '.E', and actually, the higher the number, the less precious metal, so the layer of gold should be a bit thinner than the silver on typically found '10.E' plate. Old Sheffield Plate was usually anywhere from 8-12 ounces of sterling silver to 8 pounds of copper (some later fused plate was also done with silver on German/nickel silver), I'm not enough of a mathematician to figure how they compare...

This is from Bradbury's 'History of Old Sheffield Plate' (1912):

From Okie's 'Old Silver and Old Sheffield Plate' (1928):

And this little clip from a Sheffield plater in the catalogue for The Great Exhibition in 1851 London describes a display and gives a basic description of fused plate production, including the use of gold (the firm used German silver base with silver, so apparently, like on the early fused plate, did only two layers rather than a 'sandwich'):

~Cheryl