SMP Logo
SM Publications
Silver Salon Forums - The premier site for discussing Silver.
SMP | Silver Salon Forums | SSF - Guidelines | SSF - FAQ | Silver Sales


Welcome to the Silver Salon Forums !
Since 1993
Over 11,793 threads & 64,769 posts !!

New members' post here Forum

The Silver Salon Forums are open to anyone with an interest in silver and a willingness to share. Know little or nothing about silver? Don't worry! Anyone with a genuine desire to explore the subject of silver and related metal crafts is welcome.



Favorites: (9/09/07) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11


REGISTER (click here) How to Post Photos


customtitle open  SMP Silver Salon Forums
tlineopen  New members post here
tline3open  Interesting J Wendt Pattern

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

ForumFriend SSFFriend: Email This Page to Someone! next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Interesting J Wendt Pattern
bjaskols

Posts: 19
Registered: Jan 2013

iconnumber posted 03-25-2019 06:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bjaskols     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello. I rarely have anything to add that hasnt already been on this forum but I think i have something new to share. I thought I would share these pieces i recently had in a John Wendt pattern I have seen called 'Shangri-la'. I happened to find the salad set and the pie server at different places but had them at the same time. What I found interesting was that the temples at the finial ends were different, marking this as a muli-motif pattern. The blade of the pie server was also distinctly Wendt to seal the attribution.

I have seen one piece called Wendt pagoda and i am wondering what the members think about that being another motif in this pattern. The blade/handle connection on the pagoda piece throws me. It doesn't seem Wendt. Then there are the differences between the non-temple details of the ends( floral arbor the same on the salad and pie, dragons on the pagoda). Though the blade, on the pagoda piece does seem to resemble Wendt.

What do others think?

[This message has been edited by bjaskols (edited 03-25-2019).]

IP: Logged

bjaskols

Posts: 19
Registered: Jan 2013

iconnumber posted 03-25-2019 06:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bjaskols     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
the salad set

the pie server

the temple ends

The Wendt pagoda piece

IP: Logged

RichardT

Posts: 12
Registered: Mar 2007

iconnumber posted 03-28-2019 03:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RichardT     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Greetings bjaskols -

I'm not quite sure what your question is.

If the pieces you call 'Shangri-la' are marked Wendt pieced, that's very exciting for me as I'll outline shortly. If you are asking whether these pieces are related to the 'Pagoda' piece, my instinct is that there are construction similarities, but they aren't sufficiently similar to form a 'pattern'.

But what do we even mean by 'pattern'? To me, this indicates a set of things with enough similarity to be viewed as a family, and intended by the maker to be viewed that way, and used together. Your 'Shangri-la' pieces clearly share components, but aren't identical. Does this make them a multi-motif pattern? My gut says that the differences come down to the whim of the craftsmen making them, since (someone correct me if I'm wrong) the notion of a multi-motif pattern applies more to die-struck patterns, not items with as much hand work as I believe were in making these pieces. But they are certainly of a family!

Which brings me to my piece, which is also different. It is a punch ladle, marked only STERLING, which has since its presentation in 1872 been associated with a Gorham punchbowl. I have been attributing it to Gorham based on this association, but don't feel right about this, as the construction is not Gorham's.

Here is the ladle and a closeup of its terminal.




And here are the punchbowl and ladle together.


Besides Gorham marks, the punchbowl has a Starr & Marcus retailer mark, and a presentation inscription on its foot.

It was in the Wagstaff sale of 1989 and went to auction a couple of times after that before I acquired it in 2000.

If you have a solid attribution of Wendt for your pieces, I'd be very happy to hear about it, as it gives me a maker for my ladle.

Thanks!

IP: Logged

asheland

Posts: 925
Registered: Nov 2003

iconnumber posted 03-29-2019 10:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Splendid pieces!

IP: Logged

June Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 1223
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 03-29-2019 10:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for June Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wow, those are eye popping pieces!

IP: Logged

bjaskols

Posts: 19
Registered: Jan 2013

iconnumber posted 04-09-2019 06:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bjaskols     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Richard,

That is a lovely ladle. I agree with many of your comments. I guess i am using multi-motif here to mean the same, for these well crafted pieces, as it does for a stamped pattern. Items related in form and design so much that the maker intended them to be considered a set.

My question was, does the 'Pagoda' piece share enough characteristics with the pieces above to have been intended to be in that set? (although if i am putting in your piece dragons becomes a motif in the group...see below)

About your ladle, you may want to check out Britannia/silverperfect. There is a new/recent Wendt fish set there sharing a number of details with your ladle. I do believe that your ladle is by Wendt and would have been part of whatever pattern this is!

My attribution is based on the blade on the pie server. This blade has been on many verified Wendt patterns. I have seen it on Florentine and Bird specifically.

Best,
Brian

[This message has been edited by bjaskols (edited 04-09-2019).]

[This message has been edited by bjaskols (edited 04-09-2019).]

IP: Logged

RichardT

Posts: 12
Registered: Mar 2007

iconnumber posted 04-10-2019 04:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RichardT     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Brian -
Thanks for the reference to the fish set. It certainly looks like a family. The problem I have with a Wendt attribution for my piece is that the punchbowl was retailed by Starr & Marcus, but Wendt worked mainly (exclusively?) for Ball Black, and the ladle's STERLING mark looks nothing like any known Wendt or Biederhaus mark. Do you think this is a problem?
Richard

IP: Logged

bjaskols

Posts: 19
Registered: Jan 2013

iconnumber posted 04-11-2019 01:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bjaskols     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't think the retailer is a problem. Everything i have read says that J Wendt produced most of Ball & Blacks silver. That is not saying it was his only production.....

Can you put in a pic of the sterling mark on yours?

B

IP: Logged

H Bradshaw

Posts: 30
Registered: Mar 2015

iconnumber posted 04-11-2019 09:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for H Bradshaw     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In looking over my inventory sheet for Wendt patterns, mainly Florentine, I have pieces marked with the following retailers:
Canfield Bros, Morrill Bros, P Gottesleben, Robins Biddle & Co, J E Caldwell, D H Buell, Starr & Marcus, & B.B. & Co. Mine is only a small collection so I'm sure there were many other retailers out there.

IP: Logged

RichardT

Posts: 12
Registered: Mar 2007

iconnumber posted 04-12-2019 08:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RichardT     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Bingo! A Starr & Marcus mark on a Wendt piece! Thanks so much!

Here are a few more photos of the set. First, the reverse of the terminal. As you can see, the central part is quite flat and engraved, not cast and dimensional as on other similar pieces:

Second, the sterling mark on the back of the same piece, mid-handle:

Third, the bowl of the punch ladle. This ties it to the bowl's original presentation:

IP: Logged

bjaskols

Posts: 19
Registered: Jan 2013

iconnumber posted 04-16-2019 11:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bjaskols     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The back is the same 'flat' figural work that was on the 3 pieces i had.

Such a nice ladle.

B

IP: Logged

All times are ET

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:


Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a


1. Public Silver Forums (open Free membership) - anyone with a valid e-mail address may register. Once you have received your Silver Salon Forum password, and then if you abide by the Silver Salon Forum Guidelines, you may start a thread or post a reply in the New Members' Forum. New Members who show a continued willingness to participate, to completely read and abide by the Guidelines will be allowed to post to the Member Public Forums.
Click here to Register for a Free password

2. Private Silver Salon Forums (invitational or $ donation membership) - The Private Silver Salon Forums require registration and special authorization to view, search, start a thread or to post a reply. Special authorization can be obtained in one of several ways: by Invitation; Annual $ Donation; or via Special Limited Membership. For more details click here (under development).

3. Administrative/Special Private Forums (special membership required) - These forums are reserved for special subjects or administrative discussion. These forums are not open to the public and require special authorization to view or post.


| Home | Order | The Guide to Evaluating Gold & Silver Objects | The Book of Silver
| Update BOS Registration | Silver Library | For Sale | Our Wants List | Silver Dealers | Speakers Bureau |
| Silversmiths | How to set a table | Shows | SMP | Silver News |
copyright © 1993 - 2020 SM Publications
All Rights Reserved.
Legal & Privacy Notices