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tline3open  Help with 18th century French marks

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Author Topic:   Help with 18th century French marks
Cleosilver

Posts: 14
Registered: Feb 2020

iconnumber posted 02-12-2020 10:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cleosilver     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi

I am looking for help with this coupe de marriage possible 18th century silver item. I have researched the marks, they should be for Pierre-Francois Goguelye, commune mark for Paris 1787, Paris Mark 1781-83? Has a Minerva head and discharge mark looks like the parrot. I am not as familiar with the marks for this time period and know these kinds of pieces are reproduced. There is also the Minerva on the base and on each of the handles as well as another mark on the other side of each handle. Some sold at Bonhams that are very similar and they included a Goguelye cup that looks very similar, again just wondering as there are so many fakes. It appears to be made well. ( this is my first post I hope the picture show up!)

Thank you in advance for any insight.

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Cleosilver

Posts: 14
Registered: Feb 2020

iconnumber posted 02-13-2020 04:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cleosilver     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[snip ..... Please read the Guidelines. Do not link to on going sales sites.... wait until the auction is closed]

[This message has been edited by Scott Martin (edited 02-13-2020).]

From Auction catalog:


    French silver marriage cups
    by Antoine Jan de Villeclair, Paris, circa 1726-1733 and others
    Including: Pierre-Francois Gogly, Paris, 1787 (2); a 950 standard provincial example, with rubbed marks, circa 1798-1809 and inscribed date: 1799; and two later 950 standard examples in the antique form with etched decorations, most with coin-inset bases

[This message has been edited by Scott Martin (edited 02-14-2020).]

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Cleosilver

Posts: 14
Registered: Feb 2020

iconnumber posted 02-13-2020 09:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cleosilver     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi. I may have misunderstood the link I posted is from a 2013 Bonhams auction showing marriage cups similar to this one I posted for reference. Since it was from 2013 is it ok to post the link or do we not post any auction items ever even if it is an old auction listing? I thought that it was just current auctions that were not supposed to be posted. Sorry for the confusion and thank you your feedback and for helping me get the hang of this.

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Cleosilver

Posts: 14
Registered: Feb 2020

iconnumber posted 02-13-2020 09:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cleosilver     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Also just wanted to reference that the picture you have in your post with the white background is my marriage cup, not one from the auction, just want to make sure I’m clear that my wedding cup was not in the Bonhams auction and that picture is of the one I own. I hope that helps clear up any confusion.

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11377
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 02-13-2020 10:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for your understanding and clarification.

We are here to discuss silver, please post the pertinent information without the links to active business sales sites.

[This message has been edited by Scott Martin (edited 02-13-2020).]

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Cleosilver

Posts: 14
Registered: Feb 2020

iconnumber posted 02-13-2020 10:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cleosilver     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you Scott! I really appreciate the help. May I ask just for my own understanding, is it ok to post the link to the Bonhams auction from 2013? The only reason I was posting it is as a reference to other marriage cups that include one from the maker mine is supposed to be, however, based on the Bonhams listing I cannot tell which one is the Goguelye cup so it may not be a lot of help. My question for those more educated in the 18th century marks is if mine seem correct. I saw in a past thread in this forum site that they were often faked and sometimes well faked I have been reading through the threads about 18th century French marks that seem applicable to help gain more knowledge and maybe answer it myself but am still hoping someone else will respond with guidance. This is such a cool site I really appreciate the feedback and help! 😊

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Cleosilver

Posts: 14
Registered: Feb 2020

iconnumber posted 02-13-2020 10:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cleosilver     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh, I see you answered my question regarding the link, sorry I missed that before I replied! Thank you!

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11377
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 02-13-2020 10:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm sometimes slow and add after thoughts.

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Cleosilver

Posts: 14
Registered: Feb 2020

iconnumber posted 02-13-2020 10:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cleosilver     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I totally understand! Thank you again!

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wev
Moderator

Posts: 4095
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 02-13-2020 10:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Stating at the front that I know next to nothing about French silver, I am dubious that the piece is period. Not based on the marks, but on the enormous hearts at the handles. That is a modern (19th/20th c) conceit and not at all what I would expect in 18th c French iconography. The Bonham's example has what I would, small metaphoric symbols of fruitfulness and prosperity. I think this is an 'updated' copy. Whether it was intentionally made to deceive is an open question.

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Cleosilver

Posts: 14
Registered: Feb 2020

iconnumber posted 02-13-2020 11:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cleosilver     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Wev! Thank you for your input, I have seen some examples with the hearts that are purported to be authentically old, but as we know that doesn’t always mean they are! I am hoping the marks will help more in identifying the age, I also just ordered a book from France that may shed more light on these kinds of examples with authentic and fake examples. When it arrives I will share any info I find out, and I will give you the name of the book as well which is escaping my mind right now.

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11377
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 02-14-2020 09:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I haven't a lot of experience with French silver. Should there be countermarks "bigornes" for marks from this period?

[This message has been edited by Scott Martin (edited 02-14-2020).]

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Cleosilver

Posts: 14
Registered: Feb 2020

iconnumber posted 02-14-2020 12:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cleosilver     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Scott! Excellent question. If I understand the french system correctly bigornes were used starting around 1818 and after, if this piece is authentic to the pre revolution time period than it wouldn’t have them and doesn’t appear to, but again, I’m relatively green with regards to the French marks, but learning more everyday 😊

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Cleosilver

Posts: 14
Registered: Feb 2020

iconnumber posted 02-14-2020 01:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cleosilver     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wev, sorry I meant to mention that the picture with all white background is not from Bonhams. That is a picture of my actual marriage cup from the front, the hearts are on the side by the handles, I hope that helps- just to clarify - all pictures posted in this thread are of my coupe de marriage cup 😊 I can post more if it is helpful. Thank you so much!!

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wev
Moderator

Posts: 4095
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 02-14-2020 01:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Now I am confused. Your second post shows the all white background and states
quote:
"From Auction catalog:
French silver marriage cups by Antoine Jan de Villeclair, Paris, circa 1726-1733 and others
Including: Pierre-Francois Gogly, Paris, 1787 (2); a 950 standard provincial example, with rubbed marks, circa 1798-1809 and inscribed date: 1799; and two later 950 standard examples in the antique form with etched decorations, most with coin-inset bases"

This not the auction piece? It looks very different from the other images of your cup. I see no raise edge of the heart at the handles and, unless it is a trick of the camera, the leafy sprigs are different in design and proportion.

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11377
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 02-14-2020 02:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

[This message has been edited by Scott Martin (edited 02-14-2020).]

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Cleosilver

Posts: 14
Registered: Feb 2020

iconnumber posted 02-14-2020 02:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cleosilver     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Scott just posted a post, the top picture is my piece, the bottom picture appears to be one from the auction. Mine has hearts only on the handle area. I think there is confusion because I posted a picture of my item with a white background and it is not from the Bonhams, Scott edited one of my posts where I had posted a link to the Bonhams listing showing examples of other coupe de marriage cups and he removed my link and posted a picture which I think he thought was from the auction with the auction listing info but it was the picture of my piece which was not in the action. He was trying to help me understand how to post info from an auction without posting the link for reference. The confusion is he put my picture up instead of one from the auction, if that makes sense. Let me post some pics of the front in a minute.

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Cleosilver

Posts: 14
Registered: Feb 2020

iconnumber posted 02-14-2020 02:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cleosilver     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oops/ This should be better


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