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Author Topic:   Marie Zimmerman
fsmith73

Posts: 8
Registered: Jul 2016

iconnumber posted 07-18-2016 06:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fsmith73     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[26-2579]

Hi everyone.

I am fascinated by coin silver flatware and have come across 2 medallion style spoons with a large portion of the back stamp worn almost off. Did Marie Zimmerman ever make coin silver medallion spoons? I have 2 that show an M then too faint to read and ends with MAN and then SILVER. I thought MERRIMAN but the letter before MAN looks like it could be R

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Kimo

Posts: 1595
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 07-19-2016 12:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi and welcome to the Forum. Would you please take another look at the guidelines on making your first post - I have copied them below for fast reference. If you could please go ahead and edit your post I am sure the nice folks here would do their best to give you a response to your question.

In your first post:

1.Please introduce yourself
• Tell everyone about yourself, your interests in silver,
• And why you are posting.
- We're not being snoopy; knowing will help us help you and to welcome you to our small community.

2.Post a picture
• It's not hard and will go a long way to getting other members to respond.
• Everything you need to know can be found in
How to Post Photos.
• If you can't take a photo, try a drawing.

[This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 07-19-2016).]

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11321
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 07-19-2016 02:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To get things started

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dragonflywink

Posts: 971
Registered: Dec 2002

iconnumber posted 07-19-2016 04:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dragonflywink     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Welcome! No connection to Marie Zimmerman at all. The pattern is 'Danish', silverplate by Wm. Rogers Mfg., introduced in 1880 or 1882, depending on reference source. No point in guessing on the mark without a picture, perhaps a retailer...

~Cheryl

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fsmith73

Posts: 8
Registered: Jul 2016

iconnumber posted 07-19-2016 04:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fsmith73     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I also found this pattern in Wm Rogers lineup identified as Danish. I had the spoons tested by a jeweler. It tested as silver; not silverplate. I have another photo in the gallery of the backstamp but still learning how to paste into the forum. I will figure it out and get it posted.

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dragonflywink

Posts: 971
Registered: Dec 2002

iconnumber posted 07-19-2016 04:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dragonflywink     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
With due respect to the jeweler, might suggest a second test, perhaps by non-invasive specific gravity or XRF spectrometry. A few popular silverplate pattern spoons of that era were produced in sterling, but it was uncommon and they were properly marked as sterling, extremely unlikely this piece is other than silverplate...

~Cheryl

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fsmith73

Posts: 8
Registered: Jul 2016

iconnumber posted 07-19-2016 04:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fsmith73     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Thanks for the suggestion. As you can see, i still havent mastered the art of pasting the actual photo. I will keep trying....retract that. I DID IT!

[This message has been edited by fsmith73 (edited 07-19-2016).]

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dragonflywink

Posts: 971
Registered: Dec 2002

iconnumber posted 07-19-2016 05:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dragonflywink     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Good job on getting it posted. The last part of the mark is most likely 'GERMAN SILVER', the first part might well be an obscured 'WM.ROGERS'...

~Cheryl

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11321
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 07-19-2016 05:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kimo:
Hi and welcome to the Forum. Would you please take another look at the guidelines on making your first post - I have copied them below for fast reference. If you could please go ahead and edit your post I am sure the nice folks here would do their best to give you a response to your question.

In your first post:

1.Please introduce yourself
• Tell everyone about yourself, your interests in silver,
• And why you are posting.
- We're not being snoopy; knowing will help us help you and to welcome you to our small community.


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Kimo

Posts: 1595
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 07-20-2016 08:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Many jewelers only use the acid testing technique which is fairly unreliable in determining whether something is solid silver or silver plated. The reason is that the acid they use only touches the surface of the item tested. If it is solid silver it will test as silver, but if it is silver plated the acid touches only the silver plating and so it also tests as silver. More reliable tests such as specific gravity or XRF spectrometry are what is required if you need to know just what metal is being used on unmarked items such as yours.

Would you please provide a short self introduction using the outline as is requested in the forum guidelines? Many thanks!

Kimo

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fsmith73

Posts: 8
Registered: Jul 2016

iconnumber posted 07-20-2016 10:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for fsmith73     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the acid test info. I took it as gospel because of the appearance of the spoons. They are very thin and have the coloring of coin silver. I thought I filled out the info you mentioned. As you are still asking, i am assuming there"s something I've missed. I will look again.

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11321
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 07-20-2016 10:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by fsmith73:
...I thought I filled out the info you mentioned. As you are still asking, i am assuming there"s something I've missed....

It would have been easier for us and you if when you first registered you had noticed the request for background posted several places. Kimo restated what you missed. I restated what Kimo said.

It helps our members to craft a more meaningful and helpful response if we know more about you, your silver interest/background and why.

So:

    Please introduce yourself. By telling everyone about yourself, your interests in silver, and why you are posting.

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Kimo

Posts: 1595
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 07-21-2016 01:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Acid testing will work but only if you do it destructively which is that last thing you want to do with anything nice such as your spoon. What you need to do to make acid work on silver plated items is to dig down through the surface metal with a metal file or something hard and sharp that will cut completely through the surface metal of the object and give you access to the metal that is well underneath the surface. If it is silver plated you will now be testing the core metal which will not be silver on silver plated objects. Of course this is significantly damaging the object which is a very bad idea and no one here would suggest that this kind of destructive testing is okay on a nice piece of either silver or silver plate.

The reason we ask everyone who joins in with us in this great forum to please introduce themselves just a bit is that we are a small group of collectors who enjoy talking with other collectors or silversmiths or museum curators and the like about silver. We are not a typical internet forum where people come and do pre-sale research to boost their personal profits or where people come and not be nice. It helps to think of us as some nice neighbors who are sitting in our Forum host's (Scott and June) living room having some tea and scones and chatting about our common interest of the history and beauty of silver things. Everyone is warmly welcome if they go by the guidelines. Likewise, if you were to go to such a tea party for your first visit it would be expected that you would introduce yourself to the group just a bit before diving into to the discussions. That is the reason that we ask for new people to please introduce themselves just a bit - along the lines Scott has provided. We are not being nosy or snooty or anything - we are just a bit different from the usual wild west style of internet forum and it is a very pleasant difference that most people enjoy and appreciate.

Warm regards,
Kimo
Editor - SSF

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fsmith73

Posts: 8
Registered: Jul 2016

iconnumber posted 07-21-2016 04:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fsmith73     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for you explanation. The jeweler did not compromise the surface by scraping. He just put a drop of liquid on the heel and said yup it's coin silver. So...my spoons are still nice. With them being so thin and of the hue of coin silver I accepted his determination; knowing that the pattern matched the Wm Rogers Danish. I figured Rogers may have acquired the pattern from someone. Anyhow, i can put the coin silver thing to rest and love the spoons as very unique. I haven't seen them anywhere so I assume I have a good find. I enjoy these conversations and look forward to more contact with you good people

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dragonflywink

Posts: 971
Registered: Dec 2002

iconnumber posted 07-21-2016 10:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dragonflywink     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The patent for this pattern, #D12053, was issued in 1880 to William H. Lewis, and assigned to Maltby, Stevens & Curtiss. Not at home to check any references, but if I recall correctly, they often provided German silver (nickel silver) pieces for plating by other firms - an 1882 NY Times article reports their factory in Shelton, CT burned down on Sept. 26, noting them as "manufacturers of hollow-ware and German silver spoons". Perhaps Rogers acquired the pattern at that point, possibly explaining the discrepancy in introduction dates in my references.

Might just be the lighting, but have viewed your images on my phone and two other monitors, and all appear to show the slight yellowish cast of German silver (nickel silver).

~Cheryl

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fsmith73

Posts: 8
Registered: Jul 2016

iconnumber posted 07-21-2016 11:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fsmith73     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Cheryl. The history on these variables intrigue me. I love 'knowing how the watch works' as my former Boss would say. He didn't want to know so I always did the leg work and gave him the 'short version'.

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11321
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 07-22-2016 03:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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fsmith73

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iconnumber posted 07-22-2016 10:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for fsmith73     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Great.....thanks for this info

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Kimo

Posts: 1595
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 07-22-2016 12:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just to expand a tiny bit on Cheryl's great information, there are several terms that were used by makers back then (still are) that give the impression that something is made of the element silver, when in fact it was an alloy of other metals, usually things like nickel or zinc or copper or other things, that made an alloy that looked like silver but was not. The term "German Silver" is just one of these confusing terms. Others include "Nickel Silver" "New Silver" "Alpacca" and anything else the advertising guys could think up to sell their wares so long as they did not use the single term "Silver" They were, and still are, marketing terms used to make something sound like actual silver but that is not.

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