SMP Logo
SM Publications
Silver Salon Forums - The premier site for discussing Silver.
SMP | Silver Salon Forums | SSF - Guidelines | SSF - FAQ | Silver Sales


Welcome to the Silver Salon Forums !
Since 1993
Over 11,793 threads & 64,769 posts !!

New Members' Archived Posts Forum

The Silver Salon Forums are open to anyone with an interest in silver and a willingness to share. Know little or nothing about silver? Don't worry! Anyone with a genuine desire to explore the subject of silver and related metal crafts is welcome.



Favorites: (9/09/07) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11


REGISTER (click here) How to Post Photos


customtitle
Thread Closed  Topic Closed
open  SMP Silver Salon Forums
tlineopen  New Members' Archived Posts
tline3open  ID Needed Please on plated spoon.

Post New Topic  threadclosed
profile | register | preferences | faq | search


This topic has been transferred to this forum: Continental / International Silver.
next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   ID Needed Please on plated spoon.
Tude

Posts: 9
Registered: Jan 2011

iconnumber posted 01-05-2011 09:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tude     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[26-2096]

.

[This message has been edited by Tude (edited 01-07-2011).]

IP: Logged

wev
Moderator

Posts: 4046
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 01-05-2011 09:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Having fixed up the images, may I ask what is the nature of this "research assignment"? Reading the Big Yellow Box will give you an outline of this forum's purpose and guidelines.

IP: Logged

Tude

Posts: 9
Registered: Jan 2011

iconnumber posted 01-05-2011 10:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tude     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
.

[This message has been edited by Tude (edited 01-07-2011).]

IP: Logged

wev
Moderator

Posts: 4046
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 01-05-2011 10:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You are welcome, but you did not really answer my question or those posed in the big Yellow Box. To be blunt, are you trying to garner information for the future sale of these discoveries?

IP: Logged

Tude

Posts: 9
Registered: Jan 2011

iconnumber posted 01-05-2011 11:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tude     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
.

[This message has been edited by Tude (edited 01-07-2011).]

IP: Logged

wev
Moderator

Posts: 4046
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 01-05-2011 11:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you for your post. It was in no way intended as a slight. This forum site boasts some leading experts, amateur and professional, and is subject to a heavy traffic of people seeking information for their own monetary enhancement (free of charge, of course). Those who are here for the love of silver and its history are most welcome and will benefit from what we can offer.

Now, to the spoons. They are English silverplate, c 1820-1830. They are typical of "fancy" export wares manufactured by any number of Sheffield and Birmingham shops for trade to the US and British colonies. As they are not marked by a specific maker, you are unlikely to narrow the identification further.

IP: Logged

Tude

Posts: 9
Registered: Jan 2011

iconnumber posted 01-05-2011 11:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tude     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
.

[This message has been edited by Tude (edited 01-07-2011).]

IP: Logged

wev
Moderator

Posts: 4046
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 01-06-2011 12:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Which sounds exactly like a shipment gone awry or someone evacuating -- for whatever reason -- a shop or warehouse of goods. What was the packing? How were they contained? And in what -- what sort of chest? Were there any markings? Without knowledge of the in situ conditions, speculation is limited.

IP: Logged

Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 01-06-2011 12:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The mark is of a type used when retailers wanted to give a cachet of English craftsmanship to a piece. A date of 1820-1830 would indicate a fusion plate of sterling and copper. After about 1845, electroplated spoons became available and were made down to the present with the elusive psuedo hallmarks.

The fact that the decoration is on the back of the handles indicates these were intended for use in the Continental European style in which spoons are laid on the table with the bowl down. Do these have even measurements in inches or centimeters?

The flowers on the one spoon appear to be hand engraved, in the style of the 1870's or 1880's. The other decorations look like diestamped, probably at the time of manufacture, and are beyond my ability to date.

It looks to me like they have been in a fire or great heat.

My take on them would be that these were made in a major English city after 1845. They were intended for a market that used Continental place setting conventions, perhaps Quebec or New Orleans. The flower engraving seems to tie the time to before about 1870.

One thing that needs to be stressed here is that with tableware measurements are frequently the very best way of determining age. Tablespoons and oval soup spoons have grown progressively smaller over the last 200 years, IMHU.

What do you mean by 'stacks'? Were they wrapped in anything? And how many different pieces were in each stack and how many stacks were there? This information allows us to figure out if this is a commercial inventory or household silver. The array and sizes of silver allow us to tell a great deal about the owner of it.

Thanks for the challenge Tude.

IP: Logged

Tude

Posts: 9
Registered: Jan 2011

iconnumber posted 01-06-2011 12:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tude     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
.

[This message has been edited by Tude (edited 01-07-2011).]

IP: Logged

Tude

Posts: 9
Registered: Jan 2011

iconnumber posted 01-06-2011 12:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tude     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
.

[This message has been edited by Tude (edited 01-07-2011).]

IP: Logged

adelapt

Posts: 418
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 01-06-2011 12:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for adelapt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To me, these spoons appear to have decorated fronts. As wev suggested, they are quite likely the evidence of a shipment gone awry, otherwise a business gone bust. Is there in fact evidence of plating on them, as mentioned? If not, they could have been destined to be sold "in the metal" to a plater. If there is, then I would have thought electroplating and the later date suggested (c1850/60) may hold. What a fascinating conundrum. Let's hope we hear the outcome.

IP: Logged

Tude

Posts: 9
Registered: Jan 2011

iconnumber posted 01-06-2011 12:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tude     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
.

[This message has been edited by Tude (edited 01-07-2011).]

IP: Logged

wev
Moderator

Posts: 4046
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 01-06-2011 01:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
English manufacturer were quite careful about packaging goods for shipment -- silver and silverplate goods were generally wrapped in waxed papers and made up in boxes or kegs with hard packed wood shavings for sea voyages. Remnants of such would be apparent in all likelihood, hence my question.

Understanding that you do not have the goods to hand, it would be worth knowing what else was included.

IP: Logged

Kimo

Posts: 1577
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 01-06-2011 09:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The one on the right with the flowers and leaves does not appear to be hand engraved. It appears to be stamped using a set of tools - like small rods with small dies of flowers and leafs on the ends - that are punched into the metal. Then the flowers and leafs are connected with hand scribed lines. The one on the left appears to be two large die struck designs the scroll on the end, and then the rest. Such designs can be applied in a few seconds by relatively unskilled workers which would make sense for these apparently mass produced spoons.

[This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 01-06-2011).]

IP: Logged

FredZ

Posts: 1069
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 01-06-2011 12:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FredZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The decorations on the spoons are most likely stamped. There are no signs of hand engraving on either spoon. My guess is a shipment that was lost on route and I presume at sea.
Fred

IP: Logged

Tude

Posts: 9
Registered: Jan 2011

iconnumber posted 01-06-2011 02:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tude     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
.

[This message has been edited by Tude (edited 01-07-2011).]

IP: Logged

wev
Moderator

Posts: 4046
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 01-06-2011 02:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As I said, without an actual makers mark, identification is extremely unlikely. Any number of shops used these marks in various combinations over many years.

There would have been no reason an American maker would bother imitating such goods -- there was certainly no prestige, social or financial, attached to them that would have warranted copying.

IP: Logged

Kimo

Posts: 1577
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 01-06-2011 04:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
They aren't actually hallmarks. Hallmarks are applied by a trusted organization such as a government assay office or a guildhall to attest to the purity of the metal used and often include a date and maker marking as well. These spoons just have pseudo markings applied by the maker or retailer to help market them to less than knowledgable people by making them appear to be hallmarked and thus of higher quality than they actually are. These markings don't have any actual meaning.

As for their being American copies of English spoons my thought is no. These look more like Continental spoons exported to the Americans with the thought that the Americans would not know any better as to their being mass produced and of relatively low quality, and with the thought that Americans would be impressed by the pretend markings.

IP: Logged

Tude

Posts: 9
Registered: Jan 2011

iconnumber posted 01-06-2011 05:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tude     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
.

[This message has been edited by Tude (edited 01-07-2011).]

IP: Logged

Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 01-07-2011 01:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tude gives another clue:

quote:
'The "stacks" were anywhere from 35 to 50 spoons per, as you would stack flatware in your drawer.'

Until the 1920's silver was sold in multiples of six. Which meant the standard method in the trade was to always store silver in lots evenly divided by six. Having the silver in odd numbers suggests this was not part of the silver trade but someother large scale operation, like a restaurant or steamship company.

I find it interesting that there are no forks, but don't know what to make of this fact.

[This message has been edited by Dale (edited 01-07-2011).]

IP: Logged

agphile

Posts: 798
Registered: Apr 2008

iconnumber posted 01-07-2011 01:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Has Tude edited all his or her posts out of existence? They all appear blank now.

IP: Logged

Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11202
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 01-07-2011 02:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I suspected tude would end up revealing themselves in one way or another. I have to say I didn't expect something so immediate/spontaneous.

Unfortunately the posts and deletions happened between site back ups so I don't have the text to restore frown.

Needless to say, tude's posting privileges has been terminated. Tude if you want to appeal this decision then e-mail us.

This is an example of why I try so hard to get the new member to fully explain the Who, What and Why as requested in the yellow box.

I do have the images:

IP: Logged

ahwt

Posts: 2022
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 01-07-2011 07:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tude certainly is a curious name for someone to choose as their nickname.

[This message has been edited by ahwt (edited 01-07-2011).]

IP: Logged

wev
Moderator

Posts: 4046
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 01-07-2011 10:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Curious perhaps, but not too surprising in this case.

IP: Logged

silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 02-20-2011 09:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Perhaps it is a possibility to get a lot reactions from members, by only using a good . ? as reaction?
Back to the point!

IP: Logged

All times are ET

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Open Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  threadclosed
Hop to:


Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a


1. Public Silver Forums (open Free membership) - anyone with a valid e-mail address may register. Once you have received your Silver Salon Forum password, and then if you abide by the Silver Salon Forum Guidelines, you may start a thread or post a reply in the New Members' Forum. New Members who show a continued willingness to participate, to completely read and abide by the Guidelines will be allowed to post to the Member Public Forums.
Click here to Register for a Free password

2. Private Silver Salon Forums (invitational or $ donation membership) - The Private Silver Salon Forums require registration and special authorization to view, search, start a thread or to post a reply. Special authorization can be obtained in one of several ways: by Invitation; Annual $ Donation; or via Special Limited Membership. For more details click here (under development).

3. Administrative/Special Private Forums (special membership required) - These forums are reserved for special subjects or administrative discussion. These forums are not open to the public and require special authorization to view or post.


| Home | Order | The Guide to Evaluating Gold & Silver Objects | The Book of Silver
| Update BOS Registration | Silver Library | For Sale | Our Wants List | Silver Dealers | Speakers Bureau |
| Silversmiths | How to set a table | Shows | SMP | Silver News |
copyright © 1993 - 2019 SM Publications
All Rights Reserved.
Legal & Privacy Notices