posted 10-05-2004 11:50 PM            

I have a pair of silver French Coup de Marriage (?) French marriage cups, one is dated 1791 and the other 1796. I think they are beautiful and rather elegant but know very little about them. Can you help?

They measure approx. 6 3/8" wide, the bowls are about 5" in diameter, and the cups stand about 4" tall.

The bowls have leopard's heads for handles that were seemingly cast, then hand worked; the stylized bodies terminate in "pads" for attachment to the sides of the bowls.

The bases are 6 sided but each side is divided into two parts - 12 sided? And the bases have a guilloche-like design running around them.

One cup is engraved LE PETITE "VOUGEOT 1791 and the other, LEMOINE " FOXOM 1796.

These items have miniscule hallmarks. One is diamondshaped and the other circular. The diamond shaped mark is approx 1mm long x .5mm wide; the circular mark is approx 1.5mm in diameter - tiny. An interesting note - all of the hallmarks are on the same side as the inscriptions. Each leopard head, bowl and base are marked with one or both of these marks.

The silver has developed a grayish "bloom" over a considerable part of the surface and regular silver polish cannot remove it.

Any information would be gratefully appreciated.

Thanks.
Russell

posted 10-06-2004 08:50 AM            

Someone who knows French silver will be possibly able to tell you more from the description of the poincons; the grayish bloom you find over the surface that doesn't polish off sounds like possibly fire scale; a common problem on old American silver as well. It is more or less a different colored silver alloy that appears as the purer silver surface wears away over time. Or, you might have pieces that were lacquered once upon a time and the lacquer is failing.

posted 10-06-2004 05:56 PM            

Sorry for the post. Should I re-post it at "Continental Silver"?
I reduced the size of the photos. Can you see them now?
As far as I can tell, the photo addresses should be

and

Thanks.
Russell

posted 10-07-2004 06:41 PM            

1. One sometimes does see early French provincial pieces, such as coupes de marriage, with later hallmarks. This occurred if the piece originally was unmarked (not uncommon with tastevins, marriage cups, etc) and was then resold decades later, at which time it was assayed and hallmarked.

2. Coupes de mariage have always been popular with collectors and therefore, as with much French silver, were widely faked, starting in the 19th century. Your cups (from what I can make out) share several of the common characteristics of such fakes, such as mushy cast details and crudely cut, dated inscriptions that seem composed to charm an oenophile. In fact, genuine examples, when inscribed, usually bear the name of the married couple and date, which makes much more sense given the cups' intended use.

When my friend Labarbedor returns to these forums he may be able to give you a better answer.

posted 10-07-2004 07:02 PM            

Thanks for your response. One cup reads LE PETIT '' VOUGEOT 1791 and the other LE MOINE '' FIXIN 1796. Note the use of only one pair of quotation marks, rather than two. Can you translate the inscriptions?

The hallmark that I thought was round is actually 5 lobed. I may certainly be wrong but the mark appears to be a crab! I may be stretching my imagination...

I can photograph the inscriptions, if you think that might help.

Are the leopard's heads characteristic of a given period and/or place?

Thanks.
Russell

posted 10-07-2004 07:19 PM            

The inscriptions referring to types of wine do cast serious doubt on the cups' authenticity (see above). I've also noticed that the fake inscriptions often, for some reason, include the kind of "quotation marks" you describe.

Those animal heads might appear on any (real or fake) French marriage cups.

posted 10-20-2004 04:11 AM            

1. A correctly stamped french 18th century piece must have the same marks on all four parts of the item, ie. the bowl, the base and the two handles. This seems to be the case in your cup.

2. The diamond shaped mark could be a the mark of a silversmith who worked after 1789, and one must know what is inside the diamond to identify it, if possible. As said by akgcd, the crab is a mark after 1838.

3. I cannot judge if your cup is a genuine or a fake one but just for information, the "Nouveaux Poin�ons", Jacques Helft, 1980 gives a similar fake cup in page 273.

posted 11-08-2004 11:32 PM            

I slightly disagree with my good friend Akgdc, I don’t think most early pieces marked with later marks were unmarked when they were made. I have seen only a handful of early French pieces that are unmarked and they might well have been French colonial. Most early pieces were marked in the 19th century even though they had their original marks on them. Therefore an early piece with only late marks should always be suspect. On the other hand I have to also disagree with bilgi. While some places like Paris would say each part of a piece had to be marked, they rarely were, and essentially never marked more than in one place in the provinces. I would be astonished (and skeptical) of an 18th century marriage cup, marked in more than one place unless by, later added, 19th century marks.

I agree that the wine connection makes no sense, and was just something added like the dates to make a good looking fake. Also it would have to be “le petit” or “la petite” or it isn’t even good French. Of course it means “the little” and “le moine” means “the monk” although both are common names in France. Why would one have a “pair” of marriage cups, and why a “pair” would be made some years apart, eludes me.

Of course we come to the subject of whether or not they are really 18th century. I believe the answer is slim or none, and “Slim” was shot yesterday. The lozenge shaped mark on the handle is probably too small to be anything besides 20th century. I will bet it is a “P arrow pointing up M”. Parrod was a late 19th and 20th century Dijon manufacturer who specialized in popular forms (wine tasters, etc.), he often engraved names and dates. Even without a picture you could be fairly safe betting they were fakes, real ones are quite rare.

I have seen that handle before, but not on an early marriage cup.

I would like to drink a good Burgundy out of an old shoe if necessary (no fetish intended), but it is always nice to use silver, especially 18th century silver, or at least French silver.

posted 11-15-2004 02:46 PM            

Maurice

posted 11-15-2004 06:29 PM            

Thank you for your continued interest in my "marriage cups".

Bach in the mid 1970's, I worked for/with a jeweler who "dabbled" in antique jewelry and silver. I knew glyptics (cameos, intaglios, beads, ancient jewelry, etc.) and he knew diamonds, rubies, etc. He liked to "gamble" on silver. If he bought something, he would try to sell it for 30 to 60 days. If no one wanted it, he had no patience and would wack it with an old ball peen hammer and sell it for scrap. He was going to wack these cups when I stopped him. I bought them for what he supposedly paid for them which was not very much by my standards. During the holidays, I use them as candy dishes.

Fire scale? I don't know. There is no flaking or traces of lacquer that I can see. They have been cleaned/polished perhaps 2 to 3 times a year since I bought them.

The diamond mark is very tiny. I will try to borrow a microscope and determine what is inside the diamond.

Once again, thank you all for your continued interest. It is greatly appreciated.

Russ