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Author Topic:   What to do with French marks?
IJP

Posts: 326
Registered: Oct 2004

iconnumber posted 04-15-2005 06:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for IJP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I ran across some French silver recently, and pulled out Tardy, which is really the only reference I have which deals at any length with French marks. I have to admit, it was all a little daunting, and not terribly well-explained, and at this moment I'm only able to say that, because of the Minerva standard mark, these pieces were made 1838 or later. With English sterling, everything is pretty well laid out for identifying, such that even if you can't find the maker, at least you know the town and year of manufacture. Do the marks on French silver give anywhere near as much information to the examiner? I could just ask you folks out there if you recognize the marks on these pieces and are able to tell me anything, but then I wouldn't have learned anything, and isn't that (Learning) really what this forum is all about?
So what I really want to know is, when coming across a piece of French silver, what does one look for in order to identify it?
I'm hoping especially for a reply from blakstone, who seems very knowledgeable in this field. Also, is there one reference book out there that could be considered indispensable when it comes to French silver and its marks? Of course, no book is going to include everything, but if you know of one that's close, even if it's offered only in French, I would seriously consider adding it to my library.

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blakstone

Posts: 493
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 04-15-2005 11:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for blakstone     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Do the marks on French silver give anywhere near as much information [as British marks] to the examiner?

In a word: no. There are really only two things that one can glean from 1838-1973 French marks. First is the silver quality – easily determined by both the number in the Minerva mark and its outline(1/canted rectangle = .950; and 2/barrel shape = .800). Second is the city of manufacture (or, at least assay) which is coded by a special sign, called a différent, within the mark. The absence of the différent means it was assayed in Paris – which would be the case, I’d guess, with about 95% of the French silver you’ll come across. As for the 5% that does have a différent, there’s a list of these in Tardy but, of course, without the information that might actually help date it: the closure date of the many provincial offices.

quote:
So what I really want to know is, when coming across a piece of French silver, what does one look for in order to identify it?

Well, as always, style and construction are the very best indicators of an item’s age. A thorough understanding of these is absolutely crucial to dating silver, and with French silver after 1838, pretty much one’s only guide. There’s a marvelous old book that I highly recommend if you can find it: L’Orfèvrerie du XIXe Siècle en Europe by Serge Grandjean (Paris: Presses Universitaires de France, 1962). Be forewarned: it is almost entirely text, in French, with only a handful of color plates, and the information on marks is pretty much useless. But it is a fantastic overview of the development of French styles and techniques from the Revolution to the Third Republic.

quote:
Also, is there one reference book out there that could be considered indispensable when it comes to French silver and its marks?

Yes. If – and only if - you’re serious about French silver, then the indespensible bible would be the two volumes by Catherine Arminjon et al.:

Dictionnaire des poinçons de fabricants d'ouvrages d'or et d'argent de Paris et de la Seine: 1798-1838 [Cahier de l'Inventaire N° 25] (Paris: Imprimerie Nationale, 1991)

Dictionnaire des poinçons de fabricants d'ouvrages d'or et d'argent de Paris et de la Seine 1838-1875 [Cahier de l'Inventaire N°27] (Paris: Imprimerie Nationale, 1994)

They were expensive ($200+ each) when they came out, and are probably more so now that they’re (I think) out of print. But they have what you want. Produced in co-operation with the Paris assay office and the French government, they have a photo of every mark registered in Paris (but not the provinces!) during the respective periods covered (1798-1838 and 1838-1875), with each maker’s name, address and years working.

There was a third volume planned covering 1875-1917, but it’s been a long time since I’ve heard any more about it. But, for later turn-of-the century (ca. 1888-1914) Paris maker’s marks, you’re in luck. (And I confess that it only with the greatest reluctance that I reveal one of my secrets, but what the heck, it’s a public site.) Go to: Ministère de la culture – marque

You can search a Parisian maker’s mark there by the initials, name or device. It’s in French, of course, and the interface is more than a little odd, but once you get the hang of it, it’s pretty nifty.

Hope this helps!

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IJP

Posts: 326
Registered: Oct 2004

iconnumber posted 04-16-2005 11:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for IJP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
blakstone- As always, your information and advice is first-rate. I had noted your previous postings, and I'm sure most anyone would agree that your expertise and enthusiasm are among the highest (I'm speaking especially of the thread Small French cup - Part 1, in which blakstone's meticulous analysis and thorough expounding can only be called a rare kind of enthusiasm). I'm sure you come across quite a few very fine pieces. Thank you very much for your insight!

[This message has been edited by IJP (edited 04-16-2005).]

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swarter
Moderator

Posts: 2920
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 04-16-2005 01:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
French Master Goldsmiths and Silversmiths from the Seventeenth to the Ninteenth Centuries (French and European Publicartions, New Yore, 1966, 335 pp., 9X12 1/2") illustrates maker's marks of 457 Parisian silversmiths, together with seversl charts of Parisian hallmarks up to 1838. In spite of its title, the main focus of the book is the silver and not the silversmiths, so it is by no means as complete as the ones mentioned by Blakstone, but it is at least in English, and copies are readily available on the used market. Currently listed prices are all over the map, ranging up to $375 or more, but there are good copies to be had in the $30 - 50 range. There is much good historical information, and it is extensively ilustrated; if you are interested in the development of style in that period it is well worth having, but if your interest is only in marks, you might not wish to invest a great deal in it, as the liklihood of encountering pieces by any of these makers is not great.

[This message has been edited by swarter (edited 04-16-2005).]

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 04-17-2005 12:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A three volume set by Bouilhet entitled L'orfèvrerie française aux XVIIIe et XIXe siècles published in 1908 was recommended by a book dealer friend. This series was quite expensive. He also has the four volume Rosenberg set on German marks, again at a fairly high price. Would blakstone or others knowledgeable about these books venture a brief review. Thanks.

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