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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 Continental / International Silver
 Yet Another French Question
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| Author | Topic: Yet Another French Question |
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mdhavey Posts: 164 |
posted 04-23-2005 07:00 PM
  
As others have noted on this Forum, when it comes to French silver there seems to be a level of, shall we say, confusion. It's my turn to turn to the experts. Here is what appears to be a lovely Napoleonic teapot (or is it a coffee pot?)  On the top and again on the body appears the first Minerve, which means created after 1838 and .950 silver, yes?  And here is the mark of the maker—not found on the very helpful Ministere de la culture site, though obviously a talented artist:  Questions: 1. The style, especially in the scroll work, looks rather Louis XIV (cf. Cours Progressif D'ornement par J. Carot). Did the republicans actually borrow something from the Louis? 2. Who is Fray and when did he work (I assume he worked in Paris)? 3. Shouldn't there be a bigorne on such a massive piece, or were there no bigornes after 1838? 4. What kind of a pot is this anyway (coffee or tea?) 5. I'm mystified by the red insulators. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance to all whose knowledge is greater than mine, which is most everyone who contributes to this forum... --MD IP: Logged |
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blakstone Posts: 493 |
posted 04-23-2005 11:31 PM
M. Fray is Martial Fray of 22 rue Pastourelle, Paris, a maker of "la grosserie" (hollow-ware, essentially). His mark was registered on 22 Aug 1849 and cancelled 5 July 1861. That puts your pot right in the middle of the Second Empire [1852-1870], an era known for its elaborate (some would say excessive) ornamentation; the Louis XV revival was in full bloom. There should be a bigorne mark, but it is possible that it could have been poorly struck on a large piece such as this - even the largest bigorne is actually rather small. As to coffee vs. tea, who knows? That sort of thing really can't be determined with any certainty. I'd vote for coffee, partly because it's tall and narrow (which means nothing) and partly because I prefer coffee. And my best bet for the insulators would be either stained ivory or coral. Hope this helps! [This message has been edited by blakstone (edited 04-23-2005).] IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 850 |
posted 04-24-2005 09:30 AM
Coffee pots have no strainer (at the junction of the spout and body) and tea pots have small holes to stop the tea leaves from going into the cup. Dyed Ivory is my bet too. IP: Logged |
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mdhavey Posts: 164 |
posted 04-24-2005 03:00 PM
Thanks to both of you for your insight. Blakstone, in your experience did the bigorne strkers prefer a place to strike? For example, on this pot, the minerve on the pot itself is near the lip, but the maker's mark is on the bottom of the pot. Would the bigorne mark not naturally appear near the minerve, usually (in other words, were they not usually stamped at the same time?) And what about export--if the pot was made for export, what, if any, marks would be necessary? Thanks again, for the knowledge freely given. You, and these forums, are quite extraordinary. --MD IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 04-24-2005 04:02 PM
There is a treatment of the bigorne and bigorne marks in this very long thread. IP: Logged |
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blakstone Posts: 493 |
posted 04-24-2005 04:25 PM
The bigorne mark is produced at the same instant the guaranty (e.g. Minerva) mark is produced, directly opposing it. The bigorne is an anvil, the surface of which is engraved with insects. The assayer places the item to be marked on this anvil, then places the Minerva (or other) punch on the item, and strikes the Minerva punch with a mallet. The force of the strike creates both marks simultaneously: the Minerva head on the top, and the bigorne "bug" marks on the opposing side. Therefore, when you find the Minerva mark, turn the piece over. The bigorne mark should be in the exact same spot on the other side. As for exported items, a mark similar to the Miverva head - the Mercury head - was introduced in 1840 for items exported out of France. It was, however, possible for a maker to export items without this mark on the piece itself; see the thread swarter recommends for more information about export marks, too. IP: Logged |
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mdhavey Posts: 164 |
posted 04-25-2005 10:35 PM
Yes, of course. I missed the bigornes because they are on the inside of the pot. Exactly the other side of the minerve, as Blakstone suggests. Would it be odd that the two bigornes (one on the pot itself and one on the hinged top) are different? Did the asseyors perhaps have more than one bigorne "anvil"? I'll try and get photos, but since the one on the pot is well inside and almost two inches down this may be impossible. Oh yes, it's a tea pot after all (small holes on the inside of the spout wall). Pretty big for a tea pot; this one's 10 inches high and over 7 inches across at the base. [This message has been edited by mdhavey (edited 04-25-2005).] IP: Logged |
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