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tline3open  18thc Silver Ladle "12" mark "D" and H.ROHRBACH,,?

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Author Topic:   18thc Silver Ladle "12" mark "D" and H.ROHRBACH,,?
sherms

Posts: 2
Registered: Jul 2005

iconnumber posted 07-01-2005 12:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sherms     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[26-0521]

Hello to all, this is my first visit and I must say a very impressive site.

I have a Continental silver soup ladle (approx 14" in length)marked along the handle with with an engraved zig zag line, a scrolled capital letter "D" the number "12" with no border around it the part name of "H.ROHRBACH..?, the last letters have been rubbed away.

Is this name familiar to anybody ?

Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you

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Scotia

Posts: 125
Registered: Oct 2003

iconnumber posted 07-01-2005 12:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scotia     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi there,

Continental Silver is not my speciality but the zigzag line is caused by some silver being taken away for purity testing called a diet or tremolierstich. The 12 I believe denotes 750/1000 silver and I would guess the piece is German.

[This message has been edited by Scotia (edited 07-01-2005).]

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Manylovetoeach

Posts: 5
Registered: Jan 2005

iconnumber posted 07-02-2005 01:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Manylovetoeach     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Continental silverplate often has numbers that show the quality of the plating on the base metal. This marking is almost always a two digit number. Some marks found on Continental silver are: 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 40, 60, 72, 84 and 90.

Incidentally, marks on American silverplate most often carried a one digit number. Some examples are 4, 6, 8, 9 and of course, the most common A-1. (This American info is from Rainwater, 4th Ed. page 408.)

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sazikov2000

Posts: 254
Registered: Jan 2005

iconnumber posted 07-02-2005 06:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sazikov2000     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Manylovetoeach,
I think there is a little misunderstanding:

Continental silverplate is :(Germany) 80, 90, 100 and (France) 110

Silver (Germany, Austria, Austria-Hungary)
1 Lot = 062,5/1000
12 Lot = 750/1000
13 Lot = 812,5/1000
14 Lot = 875/1000
15 Lot = 937,5/1000
16 Lot = 1000/1000

Silver (France)
1 denier = 083,3/1000
8 deniers = 666,6/1000
9 deniers = 750/1000
10 deniers = 8333,3/1000
11 deniers = 916,6/1000
12 deniers = 1000/1000

Silver (Russia)
1 Zolotnik = 010,4/1000
84 Zolotniki = 875/1000
88 Zolotniki = 916/1000
91 Zolotniki = 947/1000
94 Zolotniki = 980/1000
96 Zolotniki = 1000/1000

Silver (Spain)
9 dineros = 750/1000
11 dineros = 916,6/1000
12 dineros = 1000/1000

Hope that helps

Sazikov 2000


[This message has been edited by sazikov2000 (edited 07-02-2005).]

[This message has been edited by sazikov2000 (edited 07-02-2005).]

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Manylovetoeach

Posts: 5
Registered: Jan 2005

iconnumber posted 07-02-2005 10:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Manylovetoeach     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Although continental silverplate often has 2 digit markings, these marking will look very different from the quality (fineness) marks on most foreign silver. For instance, the 2 digit numerals, say 12, 13, or 14 in the Austrian Loth standard would have, in addition, a head in a shaped cartouche and a city mark that would have the 13 as well as an 89 (1989 year) and a letter maybe "A" for Vienna etc. And Russian silver, would, in addition to the Zolotnik standard of 84, 88, etc. would have a city mark, assayer's mark, maker's mark etc.
I did not say, in my response to Scotia, that Scotia's soup ladle WAS silver plate - but with no other markings than the 12 and the "D", I strongly suspect it. I hsve in my foreign silverplate pieces, a tablespoon marked Br.Henneberg RM 40. Also others with 84 etc.
Sazikov2000, thanks for taking the time to list consisely and in one place, that wonderful listing of Continental silver standards.

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Manylovetoeach

Posts: 5
Registered: Jan 2005

iconnumber posted 07-02-2005 10:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Manylovetoeach     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OOPS! A "mistrake", I meant to write 1889 for the Austrian year and I wrote 1989.

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sazikov2000

Posts: 254
Registered: Jan 2005

iconnumber posted 07-02-2005 11:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sazikov2000     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Manylovetoteach!
Now I play the teacher:

Scotia´s soup ladle shows the following marks:

  1. the "Tremmolierstrich" (German word for diet) is a zickzackline where the assay master took some material from the product the silversmith showed him, to test the demanded silver content (plated silver is not tested!), after that, if positive, he stamped the part with the appropriate punch, here
  2. 12 Lot (750/1000) Silver
  3. capital letter "D" for the German town Dessau (in use 18.-19. century)
  4. "H. ROHRBACH.. " (H. Rohrbacher, the dealer).

Let´s summarize:

here we have a German soup ladle, assayed in Dessau ca. 1880, consisting of 750/1000 silver and sold by H. Rohrbacher.

Everything clear?

Sazikov 2000

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blakstone

Posts: 493
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 07-02-2005 11:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for blakstone     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Not to stir things up, but I must concur with Sazikov that on 19th century and earlier pieces, the digits 12, 13, 14 & 15 are nearly always an indication of silver fineness in löthige and not silver plate.

The Austrian "head" mark (Diana, in profile) was introduced in 1866 and is not accompanied by any date mark or fineness, though the latter is expressed by a single digit representing the silver standard (1=.950; 2=.900; 3=.800; 4=.750). These standards were changed and the "Dianakopf" discontinued in 1922.

Before 1866, the Austrian silver marks did contain both the date and the fineness expressed in löthinge. But most cities which are today part of modern Germany did not use these marks, and were most commonly marked with 1) the city mark, 2) tha maker's mark, and 3) the fineness, expressed in löthige, exactly as we have here. I cannot be sure without seeing the marks, but the "D" you describe sounds like the city mark for Dessau, Germany, and the 12 is almost certainly 12 löt or .750 silver. (This appears confirmed by the tremolierstich; there would be no reason whatever for there to be a proofstike on a piece of silver plate.) The maker's mark is unknown to me.

It is true that continental silver plate quality is usually expressed in two digits - 80, 90, etc.- which indicate the total amount of silver in a specified number of pieces (generally one dozen each of table spoons and forks - 24 total) and that they contain that number of grams of pure silver. (That is, 24 table spoons and forks of 90 grade silverplate contain 90 grams of silver, total.)

Given this, 12 to 15 grams of silver for 24 forks & spoons is a very thin plating indeed. I think the lowest number I have ever seen indicating such plate was 60. The most common mistake with these numbers is that "84" - a common French silverplate quality - is often mistaken for the Russian silver standard of 84 zolotniks (.875).

But the numbers 12 to 15 on 19th century continental plate - barring any deliberate fraud - may be generally assumed to be as reliable an indicator of silver quality as "coin", "sterling" or "925" are on comparable American items.

--------
I see that Sazikov has replied in general agreement with me - including the Dessau attribution - as I was writing this. My apologies for the redundancy.

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sherms

Posts: 2
Registered: Jul 2005

iconnumber posted 07-02-2005 12:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sherms     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To all contributors, may I say thank you very much, not just an answer but an education..!
I will definately be using the site more often.
LS

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Scotia

Posts: 125
Registered: Oct 2003

iconnumber posted 07-03-2005 12:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scotia     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi there,

I have just found a ladle by the same maker, but it is made in Frankfurt.

quote:
BEST GERMAN SILVER SAUCE LADLE FRANKFURT
item# 4390429024

Presented is a beautiful German silver sauce or gravy ladle. This ladle has a gold washed bowl and a pouring spout. The design of the piece is quite simple. There is a knot at the top which sits atop the simple fluid edging of the stem. The bowl is fluted with a clean edge to the top. There is a Gothic block monogram of NB on the stem. This piece was produced circa 1840-1870.

The ladle is hallmarked on the back of the stem with 12, H. Rohrbacher, Frankfurt, and A/O. This piece is a minimum of 800 silver, the silver standard used in Germany. The ladle is in excellent condition and there are no cracks, no breaks, no dents, no monogram removals, no repairs, and no problems of any kind.

The ladle is 8 inches long.
The ladle weighs 83.6 grams or 2.7 troy ounces.


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tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 07-03-2005 07:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just a bit of historical background to explain the mark changes. The Austrian empire ceased to exist as such after its defeat by Prussia in 1866. From then until its demise at the end of WWI, it was the dual monarchy or Austro-Hungarian Empire -- hence the new mark. The Austrian Republic issued its own mark in 1922. I suspect the introduction of the standard German mark in the 1880s was in response to the unification of that country in 1871.

Tom

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blakstone

Posts: 493
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 07-03-2005 07:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for blakstone     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The H. Rohrbacher listed in the auction is Heinrich Rohrbacher of Frankfurt an der Oder, Brandenburg (which is not to be confused with what English speakers mean when they say Frankfurt: the different and much larger Hessian city of Frankfurt am Main.)

Very little at all is known of Rohrbacher but that he was working in the 1850s. He is listed as a jeweler, so it is entirely possible that he was simply a retailer of silver rather than a manufacturer.

He may well be the same H. Rohrbacher on your ladle, but at this point I would have to see a photograph of your ladle and its marks to say any more. Based on a description alone, Dessau cannot be ruled out; if, for instance, the Frankfurt a/O Rohrbacher was the retailer, he may well have stamped his mark over the Dessau manufacturer's. (Frankfurt a/O's city mark was a rooster.) Then again, the D might be some sort of workman's stamp.

That's why we always ask: if possible, pictures, please!

[This message has been edited by blakstone (edited 07-04-2005).]

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