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Author Topic:   HELP PLEASE
wendlekins

Posts: 50
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 05-05-2005 10:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wendlekins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[26-0426]

Please can someone help identify these marks on a silver box?

Thank you


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IJP

Posts: 326
Registered: Oct 2004

iconnumber posted 05-05-2005 12:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for IJP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
These looked familiar right away. I encountered some very similar marks on a piece I was examining, and posed the same question to the members in the forums. Blakstone was kind enough to give me a very knowledgeable and thorough reply. See the thread Unknown marks

I cannot say whether the maker is the same for your piece as mine, but your piece would certainly appear to be a similar example of pseudo-marked Hanau silver.

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wendlekins

Posts: 50
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 05-05-2005 12:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wendlekins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Very helpful thankyou :0)
Will pass the info on to my friend who owns the box

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blakstone

Posts: 493
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 05-05-2005 09:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for blakstone     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can add a little more information that my research on Hanau pseudomarks has uncovered since the referenced post.

This set of marks was originally used by Karl Kurz of Hanau, who left his father's firm (Johann Siegmund Kurz of J. Kurz & Co.) in the late 19th century to establish his own shop. Karl's daughter married August Dingeldein of Gebr. Dingeldein (itself dating back to the 1870s) and in 1911, Dingeldein inherited Kurz's dies and marks. This set of marks was therefore used by both companies: Karl Kurz until 1911 and his successors Gebr. Dingeldein threafter.

The photo in the referenced post has these three marks - Kurz's - as well as three used only by Gebr. Dingeldein, so it was made after the companies united in 1911. Your item has only the marks used first by Kurz and then by Dingeldein, so it could have been made by either, probably 1900-1920.

Interestingly enough, August Dingeldein's sons Otto and Karl both moved to America and practiced the family silversmithing trade there: Karl Dingeldein was the successor to the New Orleans Silversmiths (founded ca. 1926 by the Belgian Joseph Antoine Harck), and Otto Dingeldein had a shop in St. Louis and later Cape Girardeau, MO.

[This message has been edited by blakstone (edited 05-05-2005).]

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wendlekins

Posts: 50
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 05-06-2005 07:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wendlekins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That is excellent , thankyou very much , very informative . My friend will be very pleased
Wendy

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IJP

Posts: 326
Registered: Oct 2004

iconnumber posted 05-06-2005 01:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for IJP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Blakstone: I read somewhere that Hans Leutkemeier now owns the remnants of the one and the same "New Orleans Silversmiths" mentioned above. Wow, it's a small world. I assume, however, that the earlier firm has no connection with a certain local retailer by the same name. Blakstone?

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blakstone

Posts: 493
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 05-06-2005 03:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for blakstone     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You are correct in both regards: Leutkemeier did succeed Karl Dingeldein, and the current New Orleans Silversmiths (to my knowledge) has no connection to the earlier firm, other than the name.

Dingeldein's dies and pattern books are now conserved by the Historic New Orleans Collection in the French Quarter, and their gift shop still sells novelty items cast from the old dies.

[This message has been edited by blakstone (edited 05-06-2005).]

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IJP

Posts: 326
Registered: Oct 2004

iconnumber posted 05-06-2005 03:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for IJP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Blakstone, I'll certainly have to run by there (Historic New Orleans Collection) to have a look. Additionally, might you be able to recommend some other local places of interest for silver enthusiasts?

Also, now that I think of it, Tardy says about German silver

quote:
The Federal Act of 16th July, 1884 which took effect on 1st January, 1888, provides that silverware shall bear:

  • The maker's mark registered at the Reichspatentamt
  • The fineness in figures
  • The German mark (crown & moon) struck by the maker on all silverware of a fineness of .800 or more.

The Burstyn ASCAS article on Hanau silver explains:

quote:
Furthermore, the imperial law of 1888 abolished official stamping by wardens in all of Germany. From then on every producer stamped his own wares and used guaranty marks for the required silver content. This again put the stamping methods of the Hanau silver industry within the framework of the law.

But if the piece pictured above in this thread, and that shown in the referenced thread, were produced in the early 20th century (After the 1884/88 law), how is it that they were able to entirely ignore the requirements of the law, and how can it be said that the marks of such Hanau silver were "within the framework of the law" at the same time?

[This message has been edited by IJP (edited 05-07-2005).]

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IJP

Posts: 326
Registered: Oct 2004

iconnumber posted 05-18-2005 12:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for IJP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, the above questions have had no reply, which I can understand, as this is a very busy forum category. However, I do think that these are very relevant concerns, and I'd appreciate anyone's input. Are pseudo-marked Hanau pieces really silver, and of what fineness? And if silver, why or how did the makers entirely circumvent the rules outlined above for marking German silver?

[This message has been edited by IJP (edited 05-18-2005).]

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Richard Kurtzman
Moderator

Posts: 759
Registered: Aug 2000

iconnumber posted 08-22-2005 11:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard Kurtzman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Obviously the Hanau marks were used well beyond 1888. I'm a little fuzzy on this, but I believe for some reason they were exempt from complying with the national requirements and that they continued on their merry way at least until W.W.I or the 1920s. Perhaps someone with more precise information can fill us in. The overwhelming majority of the pieces that I have come across are around 800 silver or finer.

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venus

Posts: 282
Registered: Jul 2005

iconnumber posted 08-23-2005 08:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for venus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am probably the newest silver collector and know next to nothing about it, which was one reason this forum attracted me. The last post reminded me of what we in real estate call "being grandfathered in" Maybe there was some long forgotten rule that said, makers could continue to use traditional marks? Just a thought.

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IJP

Posts: 326
Registered: Oct 2004

iconnumber posted 08-23-2005 12:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for IJP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mr. Kurtzman: Thank you very much for your reply. Of course, what I truly wanted to know was exactly why the Hanau makers would have been exempt from a more or less universal regulation. I suppose some things will forever have to remain a mystery.

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Richard Kurtzman
Moderator

Posts: 759
Registered: Aug 2000

iconnumber posted 08-23-2005 04:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard Kurtzman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As I said I am hazy on this, but it may have something to do with them being a duty free zone.

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Raf Steel

Posts: 94
Registered: Jul 2005

iconnumber posted 08-24-2005 06:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Raf Steel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i want to add another problem: not only the Hanau firms didn't comply with the 'law': I saw cutlery of the Bremer silberwaren Fabrike stamped only with their makers mark. These items were made for export, could this have something to do with it? If pieces were made for export, the german rules didn't comply?
As for Hanau, I read somewhere that a maker (I believe it was Neresheimer)was reprimanded for the use of the gothic 'N' as makersmark, but there was no mention of the use of the official german marks.

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IJP

Posts: 326
Registered: Oct 2004

iconnumber posted 08-24-2005 12:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for IJP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I know that a number of countries do not enforce their domestic stamping regulations on items by domestic makers which are bound for export. Whether this is how Hanau pseudo-marked silver escaped the state-mandated marks, same goes for Dutch, or other, pseudo-marks, I don't know (It's really not a subject I've much studied, and my curiosity and interest extend only to the few pieces and examples I've seen here at SSF). If anyone is an authority here, it's blakstone, so maybe he'll shed some light on this.

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