posted 10-01-2005 05:09 PM            

I am in possession of an antique silver pitcher, created probably in the late middle ages or during the Renaissance. Its bottom (pic 1)

bares two miniature monograms (pic 2)

that appear almost invisible to the human eye. Under considerable magnification (400 X) they reveal a distinct profile that still remains incomprehensible to me. The graphic image of this profile (pic 3)

representing its exact copy - is applied here. The left-side monogram encloses two letters: "L" & "P". They could probably be some initials. The right-side monogram engraves a picture, composed of a symbol, that could be some kind of a crest, or an emblem, and the number "10" underneath it. The symbol itself resembles a crown, but at a second guess may as well appear as the profile of a ship.

//Remark: now side views also added

Is anyone capable of helping me decipher the meaning of those marks? Or at least supply me with some information about the probable origin and century of creation of the pitcher?

Thanks for any info.

posted 10-01-2005 08:03 PM            

The number "10" is some times used to donate French silverplate. If that is the case here (I am not sure it is), your piece would have to be post 1840s. Can you tell us more about why you think it is Medieval or Renaissance and post a side view of the whole thing.

posted 10-04-2005 09:35 AM            

You are also asking me what made me think it has been created earlier than the 19th century. Well... the pitcher's mouth is quite eaten away and this at a silver standard of 95 or over (I took the effort to let a silversmith make a probe). Be so kind to tell me whether in your opinion such high level of erosion may indeed reveal approximate age. In between I'll supply my post with a side view of the object.

Many thanks again. Waiting for some news.

Alex

posted 10-04-2005 09:37 AM            

Yet I would rather disagree with your assumption that the pitcher has been manufactured in Romania after World War II. I have here at hand a German catalogue entitled "Silber Stempel aller Welt" and it tells me a different story about crown shields and numbers in Romania, especially after 1947. I can't really figure out whether the authors are right or wrong, but if you were interested in taking yourself a look at the corresponding page, I would gladly add a visual copy of it to my post.

Besides, the number of notches on the object (2 notches) does not concur with Romanian silver standards, according to which 2 notches should reveal a purity of 800 or less. (3 n. stand for 750 or less) A couple of weeks ago I let a silversmith take a probe and the result was a distinct 950 or over. I think this might be a clear sign not to consider the pitcher a Romanian manufacture at all.

I would be most grateful if you help me further resolve contradicting hints.

Waiting for your reply,
Alex

posted 10-04-2005 12:38 PM            

I am not a metallurgist, so I cannot answer what seems a rather technical question. I am also not sure what you mean by "erosion." However, any form of metal deterioration is a product not merely of age but also of the conditions in which the piece was stored. Radioactive materials with known half-lives can be be dated but not, to the best of my knowledge, silver. Indeed, silver and gold have been used for coinage, jewelry, vessels, etc. precisely because they maintain their integrity. I am still betting this will turn out to be a 19th century copy of an early style.

posted 10-04-2005 02:46 PM            

While I don’t have access to your German reference, I can recommend a very authoritative work on silver marks entitled “Poinçons d’argent” by Tardy. This classic reference shows all the international silver marks. To continue your research, I suggest that you search these Forums for a number of interesting discussions about testing silver. The method your silversmith used to test the pitcher might not be as definitive as you could wish. Consensus is that the marks are the best indicator of silver fineness.

posted 10-04-2005 04:07 PM            

The condition of an object and the amount of wear on it are of only secondary use in determining its age. A recently made object that has been mistreated or used heavily every day can be very worn and battered, while a very old object that has been cared for or used little can appear to be almost new. For example, sometimes people buy some used "hotel ware" and believe it is very old because it is in such worn out condition. Hotel ware is the silver plated pitchers and plates and candlesticks and such that are used in hotels and restaurants. Because hotel ware is used constantly every day, it becomes very worn out very quickly.

posted 10-04-2005 04:12 PM            

The hallmark ist typical Rumanian. The "triangel with softened corners" shield with the crown (5 spikes) and the number 10 , and two notches in the shield is:
the Rumanian silver hallmark since 1949 for silver with an content of 800/1000. If your silversmith thinks it is 950/1000 you have drawn one notch to much in the shield in your drawing or he is wrong. In the book "Silber-Stempel aus aller Welt" by Jan Divis, which you mentioned, you find on page 197/1603 the Rumanian hallmarks for the years 1926-1937. Your hallmark is with the number 10, i.e. since 1947. Some fotos would be the best way to clear what is what.

Hope that helps
Sazikov 2000

[This message has been edited by sazikov2000 (edited 10-04-2005).]

posted 10-07-2005 09:23 AM            

many thanks for the friendly comment. Sorry again, for being absent some more time. I agree that the conditions in which the piece was stored may have actually caused a certain grade of metal deterioration, so it must not be due to age. Yet you seem to be nearly the only one among those, who took a kind effort to help me identify the piece, that still tends to assume it could date before the twentieth century. A side view of it may perhaps help determine whether it represents a 19-th century copy of an earlier style. As I myself still not convinced that the pitcher is of a late 20-eth century Romanian origin – what the prevailing opinion here suggests – I would be extremely grateful if you go some more in detail about what makes you follow a different direction of thought and thus support to a certain extent my initial assumption. It is important to me, Tom, to gain more certainty about age & origin of the piece, so could you possibly give me another useful hint on how to find some more indications in favor of my assumption?

posted 10-07-2005 09:29 AM            

for taking another effort to be extremely precise in your argumentation. This is really to the best wishes of a novice in the silver world like myself and I appreciate it. I would never turn my back to healthy skepticism, for it is most teaching. For all the probable disappointment about fading expectations concerning the assumed rareness of my piece, it is highly recommended I school myself in self-discipline whenever it comes to rash euphoria… My ambivalence however still leans on the German reference I mentioned here the last time. Kind of you to recommend to me an authoritative work on silver marks, the “Poinçons d’argent” by Tardy. The name of the author seems at first glance to be English or American, but even if the work is written in French, this would cause me no difficulty, for I speak and read this language, just as I am on excellent terms with German. The only problem is that I am for the time being dwelling in a remote corner of Europe (neighboring Greece & Romania…) and the book markets here are still not so well organized. It may turn difficult to purchase the book. A convenient solution would be if it didn’t cause you much trouble to supply me with an image of the corresponding page/es by posting it here or directly to my email, so I could compare both sources and form a more discerning opinion. Concerning the method the silversmith used to test the pitcher (by scratching it in some way) – you may be right, it might not be so definitive and the idea to search the advanced forums for knowledge on how silver is tested is a good advice. You also made me quite curious about whether the piece is hand or machine-made. Could you state some exact criteria to determine this? For all, as you say, it”s the process of discovery, that is most satisfying.

posted 10-07-2005 09:31 AM            

To be frank, I didn’t expect that much friendly response from different experienced members of the forum! It’s really exciting. A mere week ago I was so alone with my pitcher and now I am surrounded with a whole lot of useful points of view. I am pleased to learn from you something about the destructive analysis though, as you state, when the piece has clear markings on it like the pitcher in question, this should be considered a satisfying indication for the silver content. Now, as you know, the silver probe I made does not quite match what the markings should suggest if assumed they are Romanian, as well as… the source I have at hand and the one Kayvee is kindly recommending, seem to be slightly contradicting. This means some more research is in view until I become definitive about origin, date and age of the piece. Taking in consideration that Romania is not at all far away from where I have come in possession of the pitcher… the prevailing opinion in the comments may turn to be a good hint. Yet I aim at utmost accuracy (when possible) for there are still unresolved contradictions in concern of the indications. In any case, I didn’t purchase the piece on the market, it was given to me as a present a couple of years ago on an official occasion, so I haven’t spent any money, but also missed asking about its origin and date of manufacture. Thank you for bothering about it, anyway. I remain eager to learn some more methods of research and hope you will further help me do it.

posted 10-07-2005 09:33 AM            

I will follow your advice and will look up the stated pages, then I will inform you about the conclusion. Photos are indeed the best way to clear what is what. Have you any suggestion about how to accomplish accurate photography at 400X magnification? I mean – the kind of lenses and lightning conditions required for the aim? I would appreciate an advice.

posted 10-07-2005 11:52 AM            

I would concur with the consensus here, that the piece is mid-20th century. I note what appears to be a centering mark in the detail photo, suggesting that the piece is in fact hand-raised, but nevertheless it appears to be of modern form and construction from the little bit we can see.

posted 10-17-2005 06:37 AM            

I don't know how to thank you for having sent me a scan of the relevant pages from Tardy's work! This is enormously helpful, for I would have had quite a bit of difficulty to obtain the book in this country. You spared me a lot of going around in circles, indeed... More to it: you've sent the scan almost at the very instant of my request! Such a kind gesture would suggest a speeded response too and I hope you could excuse me for not having been able on my part to do so. The reason: I've been traveling a lot during the last weeks, deep in the wilderness, surrounded by steep cliffs. An exciting journey, for a couple of millennia ago this country had been populated by mysterious Thracians and the one particular mountain where I roamed about is famed for Orpheus. Wonderful sites, yet no chance to connect to the web there and gladly discover the requested pages are already mailed.

Apologies to everyone else as well, who expressed a wish to see my posting supplemented with side views of the pitcher in question.

So I reacted swiftly - right after the pleasant discovery in my mailbox the necessary shots were taken and are now posted along with this reply.

It's a rewarding relief to have at last made it possible for FWG an everyone else to glimpse at this kind of silver piece from all sides, though I still maintain a grade of uncertainty whether it is of Romanian origin. FWG, I would be happy to have pleased you by doing so, for I myself secretly admire the fine artwork this wrought silver pattern reveals. You were nearly the only one to suggest the piece is hand made (leaning on the centering mark that you noticed) and I think very much the same, although it may possibly turn out that we have both come to the wrong conclusion. In favor of our shared opinion I would request everyone to pay attention at the obvious irregularities along the dotted circle, as well as the pitcher's mouth and the rosette itself, pointed at by arrows, which to my eyes speaks for a hand made artisan creation.

I have certain doubts about something else... Would anyone assume the mouth and the side pattern could have been hammered at a later time than the piece itself? Or is such an assumption unreasonable?

Now, that the side view is available, could Tom perhaps tell me more about his own guess, for he was the only one to partially agree with me the object may after all be of west European (French) origin? I remain curious about Tom's second guess too, that to a certain extent coincided with my own assumption: speculating on the age of the piece he assumed it could turn out to be a 19th century copy of an early stile. What does the newly acquired side view tell about those guesses?

On my part I intend now to compare FWG's scan with the material at hand and inform the forum whether the uncertainties about the country of origin have been resolved.

posted 10-17-2005 08:05 AM            

OTOH it is sometimes hard to tell a really well made hand raised work if it is finished beautifully, which is a great deal of work. If you can get a good light into the interior you might see evidence of hammer marks.

Also is it made all in one piece? Or is it in three pieces? Does the chasing cover a solder seam? If not then it is hand made.

P.S. The chasing was not done after it was made because it is under the handle, so it was chased and the handle added after.

posted 10-17-2005 11:00 AM            

Thanks for your kind words, but Sazikov is much more knowledgeable about continental silver than I am. He is probably right about the origin of your vessel. The bottom line is that this piece is a lovely addition to anyone's collection.

posted 10-17-2005 11:41 AM            

I happen to have a few dozen copies of Tardy's "International Hallmarks on Silver", English edition, that I brought back from England several years ago, and would be pleased to send you a copy gratis. Do you have honest and timely mail service?.. Email me at my user name, and we shall work this out.

Respectfully,

posted 10-17-2005 11:48 AM            

It is possible that the designs on the side were done either by a machine, or possibly by hand after the pitcher was made on a machine. In Romania at that point in time labor was very inexpensive and it may have been less costly to have different designs added by hand to standard machine made blank pitchers rather than to make separate dies for the machines to use.