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tline3open  Antique Silver ship/galleon - Can anyone help with some information please

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Author Topic:   Antique Silver ship/galleon - Can anyone help with some information please
michael

Posts: 4
Registered: Jun 2005

iconnumber posted 06-02-2005 04:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for michael     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[26-0471]

Hi,

Can anyone help me identify the origin of this silver ship/boat/galleon or possibly even information on the hallmarks, what they mean etc (see pics below). I have tried researching the net but haven't been able to come even close to anything like it so any help you can give will be greatly appreciated.

Any hints on narrowing down my search on the net (where to possibly look etc) also will be appreciated.

Thanks for taking the time to look at this and thanks in advance for any help you can give.

Michael

Silver Ship

Thanks again


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Silver Lyon

Posts: 363
Registered: Oct 2004

iconnumber posted 06-02-2005 04:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Silver Lyon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What are the dimensions of your ship?

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Scotia

Posts: 125
Registered: Oct 2003

iconnumber posted 06-02-2005 05:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scotia     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi there,

It looks like one of those condiment boats i.e. it would perhaps have held salt, etc and been wheeled around the table for people to use. Does the box on the back with the flag open up?

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dragonflywink

Posts: 953
Registered: Dec 2002

iconnumber posted 06-02-2005 07:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for dragonflywink     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It does look like a nef (from Old French for ship). Believe their original use dates to the late Middle Ages; held drinks, napkins, salt, spices, etc. for the lord of the castle, sometimes given as wedding gifts. There was a resurgence in the late 1800s (what wouldn't you find on a Victorian table?), with their main purpose being master salts.

Cheryl ;o)

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michael

Posts: 4
Registered: Jun 2005

iconnumber posted 06-02-2005 09:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for michael     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Silver Lyon

The dimensions are approx.

height = 21cm (8.25in)
length = 20cm (8in)
width - 7cm (2.75in)

michael

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michael

Posts: 4
Registered: Jun 2005

iconnumber posted 06-02-2005 09:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for michael     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Scotia

No, the box on the back with the flag does not open. It like a marquee or tent. Just under it is a shelf / decking with 5 soldiers on it. The 2 in the front have muskets so that gives me a starting date at least.... I am looking up when muskets were in first use. At the front of the ship is another deck and has 4 men on it. 2 of them seem to be holding a style of firearm that shoots from the hips, maybe an earlier form of rifle than the musket.

With the wire ladders, rigging (which are on both sides) and the sail etc. it would be hard to get a spoon in to get out any salt of other condiments but it could be possible that it was used for this but just as show rather than having people actually be expected to use it... like our fancy salt shakers.

I will post some more pics of the soldiers as they are interesting and maybe can help narrow down date and country as soon as I can.... darn batteries on the camera decided to go flat on me as soon as I went to take the new shots. Its midnight here so will be tomorrow night my time before I will be able to take them and post them here.

Anyway, thanks for your input and looking forward to any more thoughts you might once I get the new pics loaded.

michael

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michael

Posts: 4
Registered: Jun 2005

iconnumber posted 06-02-2005 09:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for michael     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks dragonflywink

I will do some searching on "Nef". I will post some more pics tomorrow that might help get a better idea for what it was used for.

With the wire ladders, rigging (which are on both sides) and the sail etc. I am not sure it would have been a useful container for anything as any contents would be hard to get at but it is possible that it was used for this but more as a show piece rather than something guests would be expected to actually use .... like our fancy salt shakers

If you have anymore thoughts I will be keen to here them.

thanks again

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blakstone

Posts: 493
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 06-02-2005 10:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for blakstone     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The marks on your nef are those used by Karl Kurz and his successor Gebr. Dingeldein of Hanau, Germany in the late 19th - early 20th century. Since both companies used these marks, it is impossible to tell which one made it, but it assuredly dates from the first quarter of the 20th century.

Hope this helps!

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tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 06-02-2005 03:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The ship seems to be a generic renering of a medieval cog, a merchant vessel that could be commandeered for military use.

Tom

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t-man-nc

Posts: 327
Registered: Mar 2000

iconnumber posted 06-03-2005 04:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for t-man-nc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Interesting... all the "NEFs" I have seen (a fair number in a collection in Houston Texas) have always had an open area that you could use to contain condiments in.... This does not appera to have an area for this purpose, so i will bet my "Nickel" on this being a "Silver Toy", which from my point of view is even Rarer than a Nef...

Just an opinion...


"Smaug"

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Kimo

Posts: 1577
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 06-03-2005 04:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Given that it was made in the 20th century, my guess is that it was only meant to resemble an old salt/condiment server nef and not actually be used as one. It would not be likely that someone would actually use such a piece at that point in time, and it seems reasonable to think that the maker may have decided to not put in the extra effort and cost it would have taken to make it functional. As such it could be simply a table centerpiece to give the impression that the owner had a rare antique on display. This thought is supported by the nature of most of the things that were being made by the guys in Hanau which were largely designed to closely resemble antique silver but often did not have quite the same level of detail as the originals to keep them affordable.

[This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 06-03-2005).]

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Ulysses Dietz
Moderator

Posts: 1265
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 06-06-2005 09:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ulysses Dietz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In agreement with everyone...these silver toys were HUGELY popular with well-heeled American collectors in the late 19th and early 20th century... they all traveled through Germany and the Netherlands and picked up adorable precious little things in silver wherever they went. We have a raft of them from one family (and one nice 19th-century "nef" cup from the same source)at The Newark Museum as testimony to this vogue.

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Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 06-06-2005 12:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Antique dealers tend to have a mental catagory called 'museum gift shop' into which various things go. There is a lot of what looks like very old silver in it. Most of it appears to have been made up by museums from items in their collections, complete with ancient marks as they appear on the original. Some of these are wonderfully done, and after a century have the patina of age on them. I read once where this practice began with the Romans faking Egyptian items, some 2,000 years ago.

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Ulysses Dietz
Moderator

Posts: 1265
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 06-07-2005 09:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ulysses Dietz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ouch...museum gift shops as such are a very modern phenomenon, especially in regard to reproductions. But, your point is taken, because souvenir producers have in fact been busy for many years. In 15th-century Ming China, there were warnings out there for collections not to buy any "fakes" made for the rich collector. The Newark Msueum has in its collection a silver gilt, enamel, and carved rock crystal tray, along with its bills of sale. It was sold to Mrs. John Ballantine in the 1890s, in Rome, as a genuine 16th-century Italian antique. The maker's marks suggest that it was made in Vienna in about 1880. Gotcha.

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