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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 Continental / International Silver
 continental chalice
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| Author | Topic: continental chalice |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 06-18-2006 03:25 PM
  
This small chalice/goblet (5 1/2" / 14cm tall) was "rescued" some time ago in a flea market from a seller who had been otherwise unable to sell it, and might have sold it for scrap. She had obtained it from an estate sale near a retirement community. I presume it is 19th Century Eastern or perhaps Central European, but other than the 12 lot (12/16 or .750 silver) quality mark and the (to me) unclear and unreadable maker's mark, there are no identifying marks or helpful engravings. Is there anything about its style or design that would enable anyone to hazard a guess as to its age and origin, or by some wild chance would anyone happen to recognize the blurry maker's mark? IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 06-19-2006 12:44 AM
To my jaded eye, this looks like a cup mounted on a candlestick. Somehow the cup and base don't look like they belong together. Perhaps just getting cynical in my old age. If I were selling it, my inclination would be to offer it as Eastern European, probably Polish or Lithuanian, and probably Judaica. IP: Logged |
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sazikov2000 Posts: 254 |
posted 06-19-2006 06:56 AM
Typical Polish from Warzaw under Austrian rule. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 06-20-2006 07:12 PM
Tardy shows a couple of examples from the 1840's with only the plain numerical quality mark - would that be about right or could it be anywhere within the Austian period? It reminds me of a small version of a larger eclasiastical chalice, which might not be specific to any time period. IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 06-21-2006 12:06 AM
On the market, cups like these are presented as being 'kiddish' or Jewish ceremonial wine goblets. Used on the High Holidays and at Shabbots, such cups tend to have a fairly loyal following. When people who claim to collect Judaica buy them, it vindicates the idea that they were used in Jewish life and ritual. The other incentive for identifying things as Judaica is that the collectors are typically very pleasant, interesting people who are a joy to deal with. There seem to be quite a few of them around in the US. And most bear marks of this sort. When I have been able to find a family story, it is invariably that great grandma brought this with her when she came to America. Every cup that I have been able to trace had an Eastern European Jewish background. I have never heard of one with an Eastern European Christian provenance. But that may be me; perhaps Sazikov has other experiences. The square base tend to intrigue me. Don't see that much with round goblets. So throwing caution to the winds, came up with an idea. This is a Kaballah cup: the square base is meant to be aligned with the four directions. Any thoughts? [This message has been edited by Dale (edited 06-21-2006).] IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 06-21-2006 11:44 AM
All vesels I have seen sold as Kiddish cups have been of beaker form, and of lesser capacity than this one. However, if as Sasikov says, this form is peculiar to Poland, where there was a large Jewish community, I suppose it could be. Since the seller purchased it at a retirement community estate sale at which there was little other silver, I assumed it was an immigrantfamily piece. I didn't see anything odd about the square base, but then I have little familiarity with silver from the "Old Country" -- if my families' forebears brought any over, my parents never got it. IP: Logged |
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sazikov2000 Posts: 254 |
posted 06-21-2006 02:46 PM
Nearly all trade in Poland at that time was in the hands of Jews, especially the trade and/or production of religious silver for the Jewish community. Famous are the numerous Sabbath candle sticks, kiddush cups, goblets etc. The chalice/goblet bears the Old Warzaw Marks (1800-1851) consisting of the maker´s mark (usually his name or initials), the fineness in Loth and rarely the trademark. The Russian hallmarking started about 1852. Sazikov 2000 IP: Logged |
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