SMP Logo
SM Publications
Silver Salon Forums - The premier site for discussing Silver.
SMP | Silver Salon Forums | SSF - Guidelines | SSF - FAQ | Silver Sales

The Silver Salon Forums
Since 1993
Over 11,793 threads & 64,769 posts !!
Continental / International Silver Forum
How to Post Photos REGISTER (click here)

customtitle open  SMP Silver Salon Forums
tlineopen  Continental / International Silver
tline3open  Baroque cup

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

ForumFriend SSFFriend: Email This Page to Someone! next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Baroque cup
Ulysses Dietz
Moderator

Posts: 1265
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 09-19-2007 09:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ulysses Dietz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is a cup given to The Newark Museum many years ago. We have it currently catalogues as "French in the English style," and I use it to stand in for a baroque caudle cup of the type John Coney would have made in Boston in 1700.

Here is the mark:

Any idea at all what it REALLY is?

IP: Logged

DB

Posts: 252
Registered: May 2006

iconnumber posted 09-19-2007 11:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DB     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Beautiful English cup, probably marked with unregistered mark of a Huguenot maker, in outline it is similar to Grimwade, No. 3796,an unidentified mark found on a snuffer tray ca. 1698, which would also be the date of your cup. But maybe with a sharper photo one could work on this a bit more.

As for the motto and crest - I think I read Fortis est veritas (Strong is the truth), used by the Angus, Barton and Hutchon families. Angus and Hutchon are out of question, since the former used either a lion crowned, a quadrangular castle or a lion passant and Hutchon used a stag's head erased. Barton did have a crest of a wolf's head erased - but without the branch. So maybe it is a variation of the Barton crest or an apocryphical crest altogether.

IP: Logged

Kayvee

Posts: 204
Registered: Oct 2004

iconnumber posted 09-19-2007 06:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kayvee     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What is the size of this cup?

I would concur that it is probably not French for three reasons: the mark, the shape and the crest. The mark has the elements of a French maker’s mark of the ancien régime – initials, and crowned fleur-de-lis for a Paris maker with the 2 grains on either side of the fleur-de-lis. But the crown is “off” in that it looks like a closed crown and the fleur-de-lis and grains don’t have the right proportions.

So DB’s suggestion of a Huguenot smith makes a lot of sense.

French drinking vessels with two handles are either “écuelles”, for drinking broth or soup, or “coupes.” Coupes pretty much disappeared by the end of the 17th C to be replaced by “timbales” and “gobelets”. Handled écuelles and coupes are both wider and flatter than your cup, although they can be on a ring base, and the lip is less everted than your example.

The charming decoration is in the French taste with fluted gadroons suggesting moving liquid, and the engraved circle motifs suggesting bubbles, some bursting. If this were French I’d call it a “drageoir” or sweet-meat dish.

A very interesting object.

IP: Logged

Silver Lyon

Posts: 363
Registered: Oct 2004

iconnumber posted 11-14-2007 05:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Silver Lyon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is indeed 'French in the English style'!

It is the mark of Robert Barbedor, the son of a Paris silversmith who was probably a huguenot.

Robert jr. turns up in Jersey in the Channel Islands c.1685 and he (or his son) are still working there c.1730.

A really nice rare example of Channel Islands silver by a good maker.

And nice that New Jersey should have a piece of Jersey silver!

IP: Logged

All times are ET

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:


Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a


1. Public Silver Forums (open Free membership) - anyone with a valid e-mail address may register. Once you have received your Silver Salon Forum password, and then if you abide by the Silver Salon Forum Guidelines, you may start a thread or post a reply in the New Members' Forum. New Members who show a continued willingness to participate, to completely read and abide by the Guidelines will be allowed to post to the Member Public Forums.
Click here to Register for a Free password

2. Private Silver Salon Forums (invitational or $ donation membership) - The Private Silver Salon Forums require registration and special authorization to view, search, start a thread or to post a reply. Special authorization can be obtained in one of several ways: by Invitation; Annual $ Donation; or via Special Limited Membership. For more details click here (under development).

3. Administrative/Special Private Forums (special membership required) - These forums are reserved for special subjects or administrative discussion. These forums are not open to the public and require special authorization to view or post.


| Home | Order | The Guide to Evaluating Gold & Silver Objects | The Book of Silver
| Update BOS Registration | Silver Library | For Sale | Our Wants List | Silver Dealers | Speakers Bureau |
| Silversmiths | How to set a table | Shows | SMP | Silver News |
copyright © 1993 - 2019 SM Publications
All Rights Reserved.
Legal & Privacy Notices