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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 Continental / International Silver
 Curious Piece and Unkown Hallmarks
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| Author | Topic: Curious Piece and Unkown Hallmarks |
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gnapnco Posts: 4 |
posted 08-15-2004 07:42 PM
  
[01-1669] Can anyone please help me identify this piece and the origin? It looks like a small bag or satchel could have been attached to it at one time. The hook might go over a belt? I know the anchor means it came from Birmingham and the lion means it is British silver. Any help with the other hallmarks would be greatly appreciated. They appear in three different places. Thank you. Nancy IP: Logged |
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Patrick Vyvyan Posts: 640 |
posted 08-15-2004 08:24 PM
Hold on a minute. The lion in the hexagon looks like the Dutch silver mark in use from the early 19th century to c.1950. The small number 2 would indicate it is .833 pure silver. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 08-15-2004 09:13 PM
Yes; Dutch. The anchor in this case is the Steenwyck assay office. IP: Logged |
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gnapnco Posts: 4 |
posted 08-15-2004 10:47 PM
Thanks so much. How can you tell the difference between the Dutch anchor and the Birmingham anchor? I'll head in a new search direction. Nancy
quote: IP: Logged |
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gnapnco Posts: 4 |
posted 08-15-2004 10:53 PM
quote: I appreciate your prompt response. I had no idea the lion could be an indication of Dutch silver. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 08-15-2004 11:44 PM
The Dutch lion purity mark; the assay offices each had a symbol; Steenwyck's was the anchor in an oval cartouche. IP: Logged |
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Patrick Vyvyan Posts: 640 |
posted 08-15-2004 11:51 PM
Wev, do you have a time-scale for these marks? I'm more used to seeing the lion along with a minerva head and a date letter. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 08-16-2004 12:04 AM
The lion purity mark was in use from 1814-1953, a pretty broad stretch. The other required marks get sort of sketchy at the same time. I also would have expected a date letter, but it seems this was not strictly enforced. I also don't find a listing for the crown over two star mark. Very curious. IP: Logged |
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blakstone Posts: 493 |
posted 08-31-2004 12:18 AM
The Dutch lion mark for .833 silver appears to go with the maker's mark "GB" over "21" in a square. While it looks like "GE/21", there is nothing like that in the numerous - and fairly encyclopedic - references I have on Dutch maker's marks. "GB/21", however is the mark of silversmith Gerrit van den Bergh of Schoonhoven and was used 1876-ca. 1921. This date range fits the apparent age of your purse frame quite well. What is missing is the date letter and the assay office mark: a helmeted head of a warrior with a letter on it indicating the particular office performing the assay. (This was often - but not always - the city of manufacture.) The other three marks are a puzzle. While the anchor was the mark of the city of Steenwijk, it was used in this form (an oval) only between 1807-1812 during the Napoleonic Kingdom of Holland, far too early to be on your piece, I think. At the time, it should have also been accompanied by a date letter. (Indeed, the sequence of Dutch date letters was nationalized during the Napoleonic Kingdom and remains an unbroken sequence to this day.) The "CC" appears to be a maker's mark, but it is not recorded in any of the registers I have. Most troubling is the double star in a shield mark; it appears utterly spurious and without any antecedent in the Netherlands. It is to be noted that some Dutch makers would put pseudo hallmarks on their items to enhance their "antique" appearance, much like the notorious false marks used in Hanau, Germany. (There is an entire book devoted to the subject: "Valse Zilvermerken in Nederland" by Karel A. Citroen.) While that may well be the case here -and I think it is - it is worth noting that these spurious marks are generally placed quite visibly, with the genuine marks (which are by law required to be there) generally more discreet. I have never seen them so blatantly intermixed as here. Moreover, these marks are usually seen on items in a very old style (e.g. apostle spoons), which your purse frame does not appear to be. One last thought: examine the piece thoroughly for the missing date letter and assay office mark. While the previous posters' warning that use of the date letter was not universal is essentially correct, I have found that Dutch pieces are odd in often having the 4 required marks scattered about the piece, frequently well-hidden in the decorative work. Flatware usually has the 4 marks in a straight line, British -style, but unusual shaped pieces such as yours can have the marks very well-hidden. I can't tell you how many Dutch pieces I have sat poring over with a loupe searching for all four marks, usually with success. IP: Logged |
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dragonflywink Posts: 993 |
posted 08-31-2004 12:41 AM
Had to chuckle at the vision of blakstone with his loupe! Spent many hours in the same activity. Continue to find Dutch marks aggravating, on the other hand I've bought some lovely pieces for "silver plate" prices because I've become fairly adept at spotting at least one or two marks right away. Cheryl ;o) IP: Logged |
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bilgi Posts: 20 |
posted 08-31-2004 04:07 AM
Although it will not advance you on your search for hallmarks, if you can read dutch (I don't), you can consult the book "Nederlands Klein Zilver en schepwerk 1650-1880" to find a detailed typological grouping, with over 80 photos with legends (which are quite understandable even if one doesn't read dutch) of similar 'purse frames' (Tasbeugels). IP: Logged |
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gnapnco Posts: 4 |
posted 08-31-2004 11:07 PM
Wow! A great bit of info that I will have to read over several times to absorb. I'm a rookie and I certainly do appreciate your expertise. Thanks. Nancy
IP: Logged |
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