posted 05-15-2006 07:00 AM            

Hi,

Another strange marking has popped up on a German (Prussian) 1914 Iron Cross First Class.

The unknown mark is tiny and located under the main pin - maybe a stylized JHW? There is possibly a capital "A" to the left of the marking? The time frame would be somewhere between 1914 and probably no later than 1930.

The back of the cross itself is marked "950" for silver content.

Any information or identification of the meaning of the marking would be much appreciated.

Kind Regards
Mike

posted 05-15-2006 11:26 AM            

The symbol is the import mark for Austia-Hungary, 1901-21. The "A" probably stands for "aussland," the German word for foreign. It could also represent the mark of the Vienna assay office (an "A"). The Maltese cross which the Germans used for their "iron cross" was a very common military motif, so without other evidence I would not assume that the item is German without other evidence. Can you post a picture of the whole item and tell us more about it?

Tom

posted 05-15-2006 12:05 PM            

Many thanks for the reply.

I am familiar with the A marking relating to either an Austrian import or Vienna assay marking, but I thought that the A was only used in association with the Dianakopf?

I can assure you that the item in question is very German - it's the origin for all the other motifs! Having said that, I'm aware of Austrian produced examples and possible German "export" examples. Pics to follow as requested.

Regards
Mike

posted 05-15-2006 05:25 PM            

No, the Diana Kopf would have been used for items actually made in Austria. Imported items would be stamped with the import mark and might contain other marks from their place of origin.

The Iron Cross was the symbol of the Teutonic Knights adopted by Prussia in 1813 and awarded until 1945. I am wondering what the "W" represents, "Wehrmacht" or perhaps "Wilhelm" for the monarch. I suspect. I thought about "weltkrieg," but no one called the 1914-18 conflict a world war until after the second one began.

Nice find. Do you still have the ribbon?

posted 05-15-2006 09:19 PM            

Tom, thanks for clearing up the Dianakopf issue for me.

The "W" is logically for "Wilhelm II", however there are apparently no official design/institution instructions for the 1914 Iron Cross (as opposed to award/wearing statutes) and it is presumed that the original supplier was working on verbal instructions from the Kaiser and further, that an 1870 Iron cross was probably used as a template (based on research by V.E. Bowen). The "W" on 1870 Iron Crosses is for "Wilhelm I". So it's probable that the "W" on 1914 Iron Crosses is for Wilhelm II but it's possible that the 1914 Iron Cross design was a "cut 'n' paste" of the 1870 design! I'm sure if the 1914 Kaiser had a different first initial, then the central obverse letter on 1914 Iron Crosses would have reflected that though!

The 1939 Iron Cross series was awarded up to 1945 however the 1939 Iron Crosses were officially re-designed in "de-nazified" form in 1957 - the 1939 date was retained but the swastika was replaced by an Imperial 3 oak leaf splay. WW2 Iron Cross veteran's could purchase these crosses for wear, without having to break any laws. The Iron Cross has not been re-instuted since 1939.

Tom, 1914 Iron Cross was awarded in 3 grades;

- 2nd (lowest) class came on a black ribbon with white strikes for combattants (it is still a very common and easy to find award) or on a white ribbon with black strikes for non-combattants (much harder to find). There was no difference in the cross used. The iron core was two-sided, with the obverse the same as that pictured above (crown, W, 1914) but the reverse retained the design from the original 1813 Iron Cross. It was worn on a medal bar, single through one of the button holes or only represented by ribbon bars on the uniform or a ribbon sewn into a button hole.

- 1st Class - for wear on the left breast and awarded as a pin-back cross - although many reverse attachment assemblies exist, including "screwbacks". Same size as the second class though (generally 42-43 mm square). There was no ribbon and no way to distinguish a combattant from a non-combattant award - aside from the actual award document.

- Grand Cross - a large neck-award suspended from a ribbon. Same design as the 2nd Class but only 5 (five) were ever awarded.

Sazikov - very interesting information regarding the import of awards for high ranking Austrians! Is this officially documented anywhere? I only ask so that I can distinguish true facts from the collector "grapevine". Please do not take the question the wrong way, I simply want to be able to "weigh" the information accordingly.

Lastly, does anyone have any form information on the actual marking in the first post - ie who/where the import mark represents?

posted 05-16-2006 01:50 AM            

There are some very good books about the Iron Cross with all the facts you need - but we are leaving silver now!

posted 05-16-2006 12:17 PM            

Thanks, I was aware of the three orders. Wikipedia has a nice article on the iron cross, including excellent photos of the different eras.

I was not aware that a de-Nazified reissue of the WWII crosses had been offered, but it is illegal in Germany and Austria to display Nazi insignia in public. I believe even selling "memorabilia" with the swastika is also prohibited. I have seen lots of Nazi era medals, etc. in flea markets and antique shops in Estonia and Bulgaria. Much of it looked to fake, but I still find seeing it on display offenisve.

I might be able to shed some light on the Austrian connection to the German decoration. The Austro-Hungarian army was badly mauled in the opening battles of WWWI, suffering setbacks even against Serbia and a major defeat by the Russians at Premzyl. Once the Germans decided to hold in the West and concnetrate on victory in the East, they reorganized the Austro-Hungarian army, levening it with Wehrmacht units and officers. I suspect this action made Austrian commanders eligible for the German decoration.

I have a friend who works in the Austrian MOD and was the official Austrian Army historian at one point. I will be seeing him next week in, approrpiately enough, Sarajevo, and will ask about this.

posted 05-17-2006 06:15 PM            

Yes, please ask your friend!

Any confirmation of Sazikov's assertation that crosses with silver contents >800 were specifically ordered from Germany for Austrian General staff would also be apreciated.

I understand that some Austrian some firms (eg Rothe & Neffe, Wien) sold and possibly even produced Iron Crosses locally - could your friend confirm this and/or know of other Austrian Iron Cross producers?

Given that genuine silver was specified in the construction of 1914, 1870 and 1813 Iron Crosses, I don't think this discussion is outside the bounds of this forum, it's just a different application of silver and in a military context! There are plenty of other military decorations out there with (to most military collectors) unknown silver markings. This seems to be a great place to sometimes bridge the gap.

posted 05-18-2006 11:27 AM            

I dont't have information on the silver content, but Sazikov's conclusion seems valid for another reason. The Iron Cross First Class was pinned to the tunic as yours was meant to be judging by the clasp. The other two orders were attached to a ribbon.

posted 05-28-2006 10:18 AM            

I talked with my friend from the Austrian Army Mursuem MOD and learned some more about the Iron Cross in WWI

1. Austria-Hungary never actually awarded the cross, so they would not have imported the decorations and marked them with their import mark.

2. Officers serving with the German Army recieved the decoration from the Germans, but it would not have borne the import mark because it was a personal item and not for sale. Many of the crosses were given out for military but also diplomatic reasons (rewarding an ally).

3. It was common for Austiran officers to order replacements or extra crosses for their dress uniforms. These extras would have been ordered by a seller directly from the German maker, marked with the import mark, and sold to those individuals who could prove they had been awarded the medal.

I think that what you have is one of the extra or replacement crosses purchased by some one who had been awarded the original during the war. This conclusion does not lessen the value or uniqueness of the piece, but it explains why a German medal would have an Austrian import mark.

posted 06-29-2006 09:35 PM            

Apologies for not getting back to you earlier but I've been away for a while.

Many thanks for outlining the results of your discussions with your friend from the museum. Everything you mentioned makes good sense to me and fits with my understanding of the awarding and distribution of the EK during WW1 - in particular differentiating the reasoning behind the marking on this cross as indicating a replacement/private purchase piece rather than a direct award piece.

posted 07-19-2006 02:31 PM            

goldresearch

quote:

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Originally posted by tmockait:
Mike,

The symbol is the import mark for Austia-Hungary, 1901-21. The "A" probably stands for "aussland," the German word for foreign. It could also represent the mark of the Vienna assay office (an "A"). The Maltese cross which the Germans used for their "iron cross" was a very common military motif, so without other evidence I would not assume that the item is German without other evidence. Can you post a picture of the whole item and tell us more about it?

Tom

[This message has been edited by tmockait (edited 05-15-2006).]

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posted 07-20-2006 09:40 AM            

Hi Venus. Iron Crosses are relatively common and fakes of them are even more common. Mike's example looks to be authentic (though it could be an authentic replacement which is not the same as a modern day fake) and it is a nice example.

posted 07-21-2006 10:22 AM            

Your welcome, I endjoyed the bit of field research.

Kimo,

Yes, my friend also confirmed that metals were given out pretty freely to Austrian officers commanding German units in WWI for politcial/diplomatic reasons. The same was true for enobling individuals as the empire crumbled.

US soldiers in the trenches had a rather cynical saying about high ranking officers being given medals during WWI: "He may have got the Croix de Guerre but the [expletive deleted] wasn't even there."

Goldresearch, et al. I know "A" is the mark of the Vienna (Wien) assay office, but I was referring to the mark to the right of the small A with the 1 beneath it. That too appears to be a "A", though in ornate script.

Thanks,
Tom

posted 09-04-2006 08:52 AM            

Tom