SMP Logo
SM Publications
Silver Salon Forums - The premier site for discussing Silver.
SMP | Silver Salon Forums | SSF - Guidelines | SSF - FAQ | Silver Sales

The Silver Salon Forums
Since 1993
Over 11,793 threads & 64,769 posts !!
Continental / International Silver Forum
How to Post Photos REGISTER (click here)

customtitle open  SMP Silver Salon Forums
tlineopen  Continental / International Silver
tline3open  Austrian Hungarian marks

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

ForumFriend SSFFriend: Email This Page to Someone! next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Austrian Hungarian marks
Raf Steel

Posts: 94
Registered: Jul 2005

iconnumber posted 02-10-2006 07:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Raf Steel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[26-0895]

Does anyone know where to find a list of Austrian-Hungarian assay offices? With the Diana head, there are the ciphers (1,2,3 and 4 for the alloy) and letters for the city where the pieces were assayed. 'A' for Vienna, 'C' for Prague (from memory so I'm not sure), but what about the rest of the alphabet? Is there a book that lists these letters and cities?

And - final question - If objects were imported, did they always bear f.i. the 'A' mark or could they be imported via different assay offices?

IP: Logged

sazikov2000

Posts: 254
Registered: Jan 2005

iconnumber posted 02-10-2006 11:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sazikov2000     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Austria-Hungary 1.4.1872-1.5.1922

The different numbers:

    Silvercontent: 1 = 950/1000, 2 = 900/1000, 3 = 800/1000, 4 = 750/1000
The different letters:
    A = Wien

    B = Linz

    C = Praha

    D = Brno

    E = Kraków

    F = Lwow

    G = Graz

    H = Hall (until 1872)

    H = Bregenz (since 1872)

    K = Klagenfurt

    L = Ljubliana

    M = Trieste

    N = Zadar (only in the years 1866-67)

    P = Pest

    R = Koslice

    T = Timiscara

    U = Alba Julia

    V = Zagreb

Sazikov 2000

IP: Logged

tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 02-10-2006 11:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The "A" mark was used for imports, but it may stand for "ausland" (foreign) rather than the Vienna assay office. Sazikov?

Tom

IP: Logged

sazikov2000

Posts: 254
Registered: Jan 2005

iconnumber posted 02-10-2006 01:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sazikov2000     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The K.u.K Austrian-Hungarian Monarchy (parts of Italy, Romania, Poland, Russia, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia and of course Austria) was ruled from the capitel i.e. Wien. All imports came through Wien and have the letter A.

Sazikov 2000

IP: Logged

Raf Steel

Posts: 94
Registered: Jul 2005

iconnumber posted 02-10-2006 01:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Raf Steel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks a lot for this very extensive and quick reply Sazikov and Tom!

IP: Logged

efuerst100

Posts: 34
Registered: Oct 2005

iconnumber posted 02-11-2006 01:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for efuerst100     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Can the experts weigh in why they always cite Tardy instead of Jan Divis' Silver Marks of the World? The Divis book seems more accessible in public libraries and, at least on this topic, has very clear pictures of the Austro-Hungarian marks and the same extensive alphabetic legends (albeit in Westernized form, where "C" is listed as "Prague" for example). Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this.

IP: Logged

Raf Steel

Posts: 94
Registered: Jul 2005

iconnumber posted 02-12-2006 09:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Raf Steel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't know, cultural differences? The easy format of the Tardy book, the fact that it is in French? Stubborness, Who knows....?

IP: Logged

Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 02-12-2006 01:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I suspect part of the prevelance of Tardy is that the book sellers at antique shows always carry it. I bought my copy years ago. And find it so useful I have never thought to get any other guide. Could you tell us more about Jan Divis' Silver Marks of the World?

IP: Logged

taloncrest

Posts: 169
Registered: Jun 2004

iconnumber posted 02-12-2006 06:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for taloncrest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would love to have either one. As far as I know, they are both out of print. I've never seen the Divis book. I have a copy of Tardy on CD-ROM. I can't afford the $175 that dealers are asking for the hard copy on Amazon. I kept putting off buying it when it was available, and now I greatly regret it.

Oh, and thank you so much, Sazikov, for the list. Now I know that my Austrian set is from Vienna. For some reason, I had always assumed that Vienna's letter might be W. But I always assume too much!

IP: Logged

blakstone

Posts: 493
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 03-28-2006 03:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for blakstone     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, W was used for Vienna after 1922 – but that’s a whole different series of marks. As for the Tardy/Divis comparison, Divis is certainly more accurate, since Tardy has numerous typos and outright errors where Austria is concerned. However, I prefer Tardy’s arrangement by country to Divis’ typological format. Seeing and entire series of marks together, in their context, enables the reader to understand the reasoning behind marks and their relation to one another – like which assay office codes go with which marks. Finding a happy medium between these two formats has been one of the greatest challenges in my project to compile what I hope will be a superior book to both.

Also, I think the Austrian “A” import mark is not for the Vienna office, but indeed for "ausland". The mark is actually “AV” (“AU”) conjoined, and it, too bore various assay office letter codes in the margin; I know I have seen it with the “C” for Prague.

Finally, Sazikov’s list is extensive and should identify 99% of Austrian silver of the period one should come across. However, as he points out, the Austrian Empire was far and wide. I’ve created a web page which has, I think, the most exhaustive list of Austrian assay office codes of the 1867-1922 period.

I compiled this list:

  1. as a little example of the sort of information I’d like to include in my book – if I ever finish it; fifteen years and still going;
  2. because I’m a little obsessive/compulsive; and
  3. well, I’m frankly showing off a little. I’ve had a rough couple of months; sue me. smile

IP: Logged

Waylander

Posts: 131
Registered: Sep 2004

iconnumber posted 03-28-2006 03:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Waylander     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Blakstone

May I offer my congratulations - and thanks! - for the web link. Very useful, I have already bookmarked it.

Waylander

IP: Logged

adelapt

Posts: 418
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 03-28-2006 05:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for adelapt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Congratulations and thanks, Blakstone.
Put me down for a copy when you hit print!
You are an object of wonder to us all...

IP: Logged

agleopar

Posts: 847
Registered: Jun 2004

iconnumber posted 03-28-2006 08:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for agleopar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Blackstone:
  1. We all want the book.

  2. If your on this site by definition your O/C.

  3. We all like it when you (and some others with accents to us yanks) show off.

  4. Please trudge on we are with you!
ps Raf Steel glad you are fully with us.

IP: Logged

Raf Steel

Posts: 94
Registered: Jul 2005

iconnumber posted 03-28-2006 11:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Raf Steel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Blackstone: very impressive, I know how time consuming research can be. Agleopar thanks for the welcome
Raf

IP: Logged

FWG

Posts: 845
Registered: Aug 2005

iconnumber posted 03-28-2006 03:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FWG     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
blakstone, that's an impressive piece of work -- as usual. I, too, hope you'll move towards publication, as we could all really use your book (as I understand it to be).

I know from experience and observation that it can be hard to put an end to a book project; there always are more things that could be added or edited (I've published one monograph, several edited volumes, and dozens of shorter pieces, so I know this subject all too well). One of the main arts in writing a book is in fact knowing when to say, enough. If authors waited until everything was perfect, we'd have no books to read! So by all means, work on it until it's a coherent whole, and correct things you can as you go, but I'd join the chorus urging you to publish as soon as you can -- so the rest of us can also benefit from your research!

I posted a comparison of Tardy and Divis a few weeks ago in the Silver Ephemera & Documentation forum, which has been suggested as an appropriate place for the discussion of silver books.

IP: Logged

tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 03-28-2006 07:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the list Blackstone, and put me down for an advanced copy as well. Just above your post on this thread, I had also suggested that "A" stood for "ausland." Glad to have that confirmed.

I like Tardy, but find it is has one irritating quirk: the translator left the countries in the French alphabetical order. Germany is thus in the "a" section as it would be for "Allemagne".

Tom

IP: Logged

venus

Posts: 282
Registered: Jul 2005

iconnumber posted 03-29-2006 06:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for venus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My Diana head spoons are marked with TS and then "the head" and one is marked with the head first and then it looks like IS (I think) it is punched inward and the letters are inside the round punched indention. They have an MD monogram. How would the 2 letter fit in with the town letters?

IP: Logged

tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 03-29-2006 09:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Venus,

Any chance you could post a photo? I am having trouble visualizing what you describe and am wondering if it might be something other than Austro-Hungarian. A woman's head was a fairly common motif in several European hallmarks.

Tom

IP: Logged

venus

Posts: 282
Registered: Jul 2005

iconnumber posted 03-30-2006 07:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for venus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Good Morning Tom, I will try after I wake up a little more. They are really little, especially the IS one.

OK Here is the backmark for the T B one The IS is just way to small to try.

IP: Logged

tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 03-30-2006 04:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Venus,

I would say the letters are almost certainly makers marks rather than town marks. Tardy does not list makers, and I don't have a good source. Blackstone and/or Sazakov will probably come up with the answer. Very nice spoon similar to one I picked up from the region.

Tom

IP: Logged

venus

Posts: 282
Registered: Jul 2005

iconnumber posted 03-31-2006 03:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for venus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ty Tom....

IP: Logged

blakstone

Posts: 493
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 03-31-2006 10:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for blakstone     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm afraid I can't make out too much in your photographs, not even the "TB".

First, we need to know what city we're in. The outline of the Diana's head mark tells me that the spoons are the third standard of .800; there should be a number "3" to the left, behind her head, to confirm this. There should also be a letter to the right, in front of her face; this letter identifies the assay office which you can find on the posts/links above.

If it's A for Vienna, then the maker can probably be identified. If not, your chances of identifiying the maker decrease drastically.

I will say that this double-swell fiddle handle was most popular in the mid-19th C.; although it was pass by the turn of the century, it was certainly made well into the 1900s. Frankly, I rather like it; it just seems so summer of '48 to me.

IP: Logged

venus

Posts: 282
Registered: Jul 2005

iconnumber posted 04-01-2006 02:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for venus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
nope..... nada nothing but the head and those initials. I can try for a better shot but all that is there is a regular T B and the head and the is on one, that looks done with a punch, round and deep and small. One person who saw them said they were coin silver.

IP: Logged

blakstone

Posts: 493
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 04-01-2006 04:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for blakstone     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK, now I see the "TB"; I was looking at it wrong. My bad.

The mark appears to be that of Viennese silversmith Theodor Bittner (master 1857). That's assuming that the piece is from Vienna; without the assay office code, I can't be certain. If there is no letter in front of Diana's face, then it probably dates from the 1867-1872 period, and I'd surmise that the assay office code was omitted. (Though I'm always leery of such "mistakes"; assay office personnel were highly trained officials and true errors are, in my experience, rare.)

Viennese maker's marks can be notoriously difficult to identify without a photo. Serif vs. sans-serif, rounded corners vs. canted corners, periods vs. pellets . . . all these make a difference. That by way of saying that the "IS" would definitely need to be photographed, there are a least nine IS's working at the time.

IP: Logged

venus

Posts: 282
Registered: Jul 2005

iconnumber posted 04-03-2006 08:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for venus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
blakstone there is no doubt in my mind that your book will be a sucess. As a former researcher (just abstracting) I know the hours and hard work that go into it. My work only went back 30 to 40 years and was limited in location. Yours spans centurys, continents, numerous silversmiths... oh my

As for those pesky head shots... the head is surrounded by what looks like a flower, a five petaled flower. The "flower" part is indented and the head part is raised. I have a new magnifier with claws so will try again on the pictures.

IP: Logged

All times are ET

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:


Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a


1. Public Silver Forums (open Free membership) - anyone with a valid e-mail address may register. Once you have received your Silver Salon Forum password, and then if you abide by the Silver Salon Forum Guidelines, you may start a thread or post a reply in the New Members' Forum. New Members who show a continued willingness to participate, to completely read and abide by the Guidelines will be allowed to post to the Member Public Forums.
Click here to Register for a Free password

2. Private Silver Salon Forums (invitational or $ donation membership) - The Private Silver Salon Forums require registration and special authorization to view, search, start a thread or to post a reply. Special authorization can be obtained in one of several ways: by Invitation; Annual $ Donation; or via Special Limited Membership. For more details click here (under development).

3. Administrative/Special Private Forums (special membership required) - These forums are reserved for special subjects or administrative discussion. These forums are not open to the public and require special authorization to view or post.


| Home | Order | The Guide to Evaluating Gold & Silver Objects | The Book of Silver
| Update BOS Registration | Silver Library | For Sale | Our Wants List | Silver Dealers | Speakers Bureau |
| Silversmiths | How to set a table | Shows | SMP | Silver News |
copyright © 1993 - 2020 SM Publications
All Rights Reserved.
Legal & Privacy Notices