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Author Topic:   Pair of candlelabres
kerppola

Posts: 69
Registered: Jul 2006

iconnumber posted 07-18-2006 04:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kerppola     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[26-1139]

Hi!

I have a pair of candelabras which I think are German and somewhere from 19th century. I would be interested to get this confirmed and also I would like to know the maker and the town. There is a mark with JW and 13 together. Thanks for any information in advance.

Regards,
Juhana

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kerppola

Posts: 69
Registered: Jul 2006

iconnumber posted 08-04-2006 09:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kerppola     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have got the information that the candlelabres would be from the area of poland or hungary from around 1860.

Any more detailed information would be welcomed.

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tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 08-04-2006 05:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Juhana,

I blieve the "13" is a loth mark, a system for measuring silver content in the Hapsburg Empire (Austria, Hungary, parts of Poland, Romania, Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Croatia) prior to 1867 and in Germany prior to 1888. "13" Loth silver contained 81.25% pure silver. Usually the loth mark was in a crest with some sort of town or assay office mark, but I suspect that "JW" is a maker's mark. Is the mark above and to the right of the "JW/13" a symbol or just a wear mark?

Since Poland did not exist as an independent state at the time your candlesticks were made, they must have come from either the Austrian or Prussian controlled areas. Polish silver from the Russian controlled areas would have had Russian markings. You indicated "Poland or Hungary" as the point of orign, which suggests the Hapsburg lands, but I would need a town or region name to be sure.
Either Blackstone and/or Sazikov, both of whom have more detailed references than I do may be able to help you further id these lovely pieces.

Good luck,
Tom

[This message has been edited by tmockait (edited 08-04-2006).]

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kerppola

Posts: 69
Registered: Jul 2006

iconnumber posted 08-05-2006 03:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kerppola     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for your reply and efforts to find the origin of the candlelabres.

The mark beside JW/13 is just silver tarnish, no other marks have been found on the candlelabres.

It sounds right as you say that the candlelabres would be either from the Hapsburg Empire so somewhere from Austria-Hungary area or then the Prussian area. Your comment about the russian area is also very valid. There is no town mark so we have to go from the maker.

One thing that I didn't remember to mention is that it has been indicated to me that the JW would be Johann Weiss or Ignaz Weiss but I don't know to which one the mark is dedicated and in which town or region they worked. If anybody would have any idea of this I would appreciate this knowledge very much.

Regards,
Juhana

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tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 08-05-2006 03:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There was a "medalist and engraver" named Johann Weiss, who lived in Vienna from 1794-1861. He may be the maker, but the marks don't look quite right for Vienna. However, all I have is Tardy's book on international silver, which is not the best source for Austrian silver. Also, "Weiss" was a common German name.

tom

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Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 08-05-2006 11:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you for sharing these wonderful candlelabre with us Juhana. They are great examples of Baroque design. Which is where the dating problem comes in. They very surely could have been made in 1860. Or last week. Or in 1650. Or somewhere in between. Traditional styles once established repeat for centuries.

My own persistent thought would be to measure them. If the measurements come out fairly evenly, like whole numbers, in metric dimensions, this would indicate post 1800 production. If they don't work that way it would indicate earlier work. Unless these were copies of a much older pair.

Are they exactly identical or are there little differences that would indicate hand work? Are the pieces cast or hammered? How many separate pieces go into making up the ensamble?

Lastly, what is the base weighted with? The trick with candlelabre is that they must be bottom heavy. That way they are less likely to tip over and set the house on fire. Is the bottome filled with lead or wax or carved wood or what?

Hope this helps, and thanks again for sharing, Dale

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kerppola

Posts: 69
Registered: Jul 2006

iconnumber posted 08-06-2006 06:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kerppola     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for sharing your knowledge which helps me to understand the candlelabres better.

I agree that they could also be from somewhere of todays area of Germany. As I mentioned a silver specialist estimated them to be from somewhere of todays area of Poland or Hungary which would mean the Austria-Hungary empire or Prussia. The maker could be the Johann Weiss from Vienna. Do you know if he also did silver objects. I also agree that it is not the 19th century Austria-Hungary type of mark. As you said it could also be some other Weiss from the area. As there were so many small German states it could be from somewhere of them. Do you know what kind of marks where used in Prussia during those times. Also any other German state in those times. Do you know if papers of hallmarks, makers etc. have been destroyed during the wars (like WW I and WW II) in those areas like it happened much in Russia during the revolution so we don't have today exact knowledge of all the hallmarks and silversmith marks before WW I (19th, 18th etc centuries).

The measurements are: hight 52 cm x width 37 cm. There is a slight (1 cm) difference in the width which you might also be able to see from the picture. In the middle of the candlelabres the leaves are closer to the center of the candlelabre on the right. I guess this would also mean that they are partly handmade. Of course they could have also been tipped over but that would mean it would have happened from both sides the same way and that don't side very logical. The candlelabres are hollow from inside. They have not been filled with anything so they stand on their own weight well. I don't have anything with which weight them but they are of ok weight, not very heavy but not very light.

The candlelabre can be used with either one, two or three candles. With one candle you can separate the lower part and use it as a normal candlestick. With two candles you can insert a separate detail (which is not in the picture) to the middle candle holder. And then of course with three candles. This is of course economical and I guess in the 19th century this was still taken into account as candles where expensive. You can also take away the three candle holders and their bases where wax drips.

I would say that for me the mentioned around 1860 would sound accurate. From the candlelabres you can clearly see the patina on the surface of the silver from years of cleaning and I would say that they are at least partly machine made which during that time was already in use. You can see also that there are parts which have been soldered together by hand. In those times also the styles were re-used so that would also be right.

I welcome futher ideas and I guess the mark and maker is the key as with that the area/town and exact period of the candlelabres could be defined.

Regards,
Juhana

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tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 08-06-2006 01:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Since there was no Germany until 1871, each principality had its own hallmarking laws. To the best of my knowledge all used the loth system to determine purity. Towns also had their own marks. However, town marks were not always applied.

A great deal was lost to art, history, and culture during both World Wars, but I am not aware of any central repository of silver hallmark information being destroyed (of if one even existed in the first place). As you will see if you puruse the Continental forum, a great deal of information on makers and their marks is either missing or not compiled in one easy reference.

Tom

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Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 08-06-2006 11:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you so much Juhana for the information. The fact that these yield even metric numbers suggests a date after 1800, when the French system came into effect throughout conquered Europe. That helps us narrow it down.

The marks on silver were sometimes required by a town guild or a silversmith's association. Sometimes they were required by law. As far as I know, Russian markings on Polish made silver are rather scarce. Instead there was an erratic local system that varied all over the place. Polish silver was sold to Polish speaking people where ever they lived. The trade was conducted by traditional smuggling. And the records were lost during the wars.

JW seems too popular a set of initials to be quickly narrowed down. The work here is quite good, and probably not from a one man shop. It does not look like any of the elements were purchased; they appear to be the work of one maker.

As this is a lighting device, it may have been produced outside the silversmith's trade. This I don't really know, but am generalizing from US practice.

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kerppola

Posts: 69
Registered: Jul 2006

iconnumber posted 08-07-2006 03:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kerppola     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would be quite sure that the candlelabres where made in the areas of some of the previous German states, Poland or Austria-Hungary empire as the mark includes the loth system mark 13. As you wrote if town marks were not always applied in all German states it might be the most probable. I was thinking as the hallmarkings and laws were scattered in all small states so some of it might have been lost. Otherwise it might be from Poland or the vast Austria-Hungary empire if they didn't have the hallmarking controlled and equalized well as you write about the Polish area.

I would assume that the candlelabres were made to a higher civial servant or military person and the producer would be at least a little bigger firm and most likely in a bigger town in for instance the German states.

I agree that the parts look to have been made by the same person.

I have been reading the other threads on the continental silver and I am surprised that there seems not to be litterature or it is not well known the silver markings in those areas. I would assume that there would have been made investigations and books of hallmarkings in those countries if the information would be available. If there were these books and information I would assume some of the persons in this forum would have knowledge of.

Thanks for your replies. It might be that the knowledge of the mark have disappeared during the history of those areas, it might also come up someday, we will see. I let you know in this forum if I get some additional knowledge.

Regards,
Juhana

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tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 08-07-2006 02:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There are some sources, but they are not available in English. Check out this thread and scroll down to the note by Blackstone, who along with Sazikov are the ones with the best knowledge on Russian-Austrian-German silver:
Hungarian spoon

Dale,

I am curious about your conclusion that "Russian marks on Polish silver are rare". Warsaw had its own town mark in the Russian imperial hallmarking system.

Tom

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Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 08-07-2006 07:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tom, that is just my experience. From what I have seen of Polish silver that should have had a Russian mark but didn't. Which may not be a general result, but the one I get. Thanks for asking, sorry not to have a better response.

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tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 08-07-2006 09:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Dale. I know you have a lot of knowledge and experience with silver, and I appreciate your sharing it!

Tom

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DB

Posts: 252
Registered: May 2006

iconnumber posted 08-07-2006 11:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DB     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The candelabras are definitely Austro-Hungarian.I had (unfortunately in pre digital camera times)a centerpiece and an inkstand marked with JW over 13. There were of course silversmiths, which had to work outside the guild - for instance to be Christian was one of the requirements of the guild- these people were called "Stoerer" and many rules within the guild dealt with these silversmiths. It was suggested that nobody should buy from these "illegal" tradespeople. But these rules were not strictly enforced nor obeyed. After the dissolving of the guilds and trade freedom was granted (1857 if I remember correctly), the artificial guild requirements were also abandoned.
The candelabras are in a typical late Biedermeier style, ca. 1850-60. I have never been able to identify JW over 13, but there was a very prolific Viennese silver firm,Jacob Weiss, working under a special priviledge. Usually products by this firm are marked with the Radlpunze (round mark)and IW within a double eagle.

------------------
Dorothea Burstyn

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kerppola

Posts: 69
Registered: Jul 2006

iconnumber posted 08-08-2006 03:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kerppola     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the excellent information and knowledge sharing. I have learned very much more of the silver in those areas.

Thanks Dorothea for participating in this thread and the happy occasions that you had a centerpiece by the same maker. The best with this forum is the knowledge sharing and the possibility of an other with a silver object by the same person who by previous research exactly knows the origin of the silver object and the maker.

Thanks once again.

Regards,
Juhana

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