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Author Topic:   Normal fishing day?
silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 08-19-2007 06:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[26-1480]

I want to explain my interest for Norway silver work (and the questions about it on this SMP forum). A few months ago I was fishing and meanwhile I looked into the clear water.

With a lot of luck I saw a little spoon half disappeared in the mud of the ditch. I went into the water took it out and my first thought was an little iron spoon.

Dirty black/brown hardly to recognize what it should be for that moment.

A looked twice the same place and was not sure if there where other objects lying around. Second time I went into the water, I found more in the mud after a while I had filled my fishing net and went home. I visited the place three times and it totally resulted in 71 pieces.

For one week long I cleaned the silver, with warm soda water and placed tinfoil into it together with only recognizing silver material. Warm soda water and tinfoil gives a chemical reaction and each time I used this method black parts of dirt came free from the silver work. With a closer look I could now see engravings letters and some dates in the silver work. Excited and not knowing what the marks and names meant, I searched around and also find this SMP forum. Til now, I've got any reactions from members and appreciate this a lot and put the information together with the pieces so I'm very glad. I wanted to explain the reason why I often asked about Norway silver work the couples of months.In the future I will not often ask so much again at this forum. Only when I buy now sometimes silver/plated things and when I can't explain it after own research I will put a next question.

All the material is cleaned and I look everyday at a little Norwegian Museum.

I will send a few photo's about this subject. If I can inform about any recognized silver questions at the SMP Forum I will try to also give information.

My interest is growing more and more.

Greetings Silverhunter

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rian

Posts: 169
Registered: Jan 2006

iconnumber posted 08-19-2007 08:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rian     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What a great story, Silverhunter! Thank you for sharing your find with us.

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FWG

Posts: 845
Registered: Aug 2005

iconnumber posted 08-19-2007 11:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for FWG     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If that's normal fishing day there, I think you'll find a lot of people moving to the Netherlands!

That's a great story, and quite a nice cache of silver. Makes one wonder about the story behind it - how and why did it end up there?

In some places a find like that would have to be reported as 'treasure trove', and subject to confiscation. I presume that doesn't apply there?

The aluminum-soda solution is something that is generally discouraged for use on old silver, as it removes the original patina along with the undesirable tarnish, but this case was a perfect time to use it. And judging from the photos, your results were excellent!

Thanks so much for sharing the story, and feel free to show us some individual interesting pieces, even if you don't have a question - sometimes just information and photos is even better than a puzzle to solve!

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11202
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 08-19-2007 11:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes, a truly splendid silver story!

River, pond or lake fresh water or was it saltwater fishing?

What were you using for bait smile ?

Of the pieces you've been able to research, what is the range of dates?

Are they all engraved the same or similar ?

Thanks for sharing.

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 08-19-2007 05:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you for nice reactions, most of the times I don't catch a lot of fishes, so this is a compensation.

Perhaps a long reaction from my side for the questions:

Not all silver work is engraved, the oldest is dated 1798 and I was helped by good information from member Blackstone in a topic dated 07/23/07.

The spoon was also found with the other silver pieces, but was made in Kaliningrad.

There are two pieces totaly cut through, done by a excavator? One of the spoons has two marks the letter H and a mark with the number 20.(I found three pieces total)

I've readed somewhere that the letter H is a indication for Finland, but I'm not sure about this. So perhaps two pieces are not from Norway.(one for sure).

All the other pieces are made by gold- or silversmiths who worked or lived in Bergen: Magnus Aase, Gunnar Aase, Marius Hammer,Theodor Olsens,and Brothers Lohne (information about Lohne I had by members Dragonwinkfly and Blakstone about the Kronestile pattern etc.)

There is a exception,the crayfish forks are marked with AS 900.

All the other silver pieces are stamped with 830 S.

There is one silver piece(serving spoon) made by J. Tostrup dated 1913. Two other pieces are made by M.Olsen dated 1912 (also serving spoons) and there is another serving spoon made by Marius Hammer dated 1915.

No other pieces are engraved with dates, only a few letters (initials)and they will always be a insolvable problem to know the past/history.

I could fish at another place that day and the silver work could lay there for maybe hundreds of years?

I'm glad I found it and can tell about it.

Some photo's are included for more information from my side.

First photo shows two tart servers, second photo is a picture about the ornament from a crayfish fork, only marked with AS 900.(?)

And last photo is made from the cleaned/polished silver work from Norway.

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 08-19-2007 06:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm sorry my son teach me tomorrow (again) to send the photo's correct to this topic.
A reaction for FWG : in Holland we never catch goldfishes and nobody helped me with poloshing the silverwork.(seven days long),I'm still shaking.

Blakstone I used your membername not correctly it isn't blackstone, I will check
my eyes tomorrow.
Greetings to you all, Silverhunter.

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adelapt

Posts: 418
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 08-20-2007 09:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for adelapt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you 'silverhunter' for a wonderfully interesting posting. May start planning a fishing trip to the Netherlands...

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 08-22-2007 04:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Adelapt,

It's true I miss the programs from Rex Hunt, since he learned me a lot. You have a wonderful nature over there, more fishing possibilities than over here.
Yesterday I bought a few little silverplated objects, so I'd like to ask about one of them in a new topic, but I want to wait for a few other members to post their questions first.

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kerppola

Posts: 69
Registered: Jul 2006

iconnumber posted 08-22-2007 05:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kerppola     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can comment on your question concerning Finland. It is true that the H is used for the silver objects in Finland. One common marking is the 813H in rectangle. Other purities used nowdays in Finland are 800, 830 and 925.

The spoons that you mention are not Finnish and I believe they are plated. In Finland the plated and alpacca objects are marked with either ALP or UH.

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dragonflywink

Posts: 953
Registered: Dec 2002

iconnumber posted 08-22-2007 12:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dragonflywink     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You don't show full pictures or marks on the crayfish fork, but it reminds me of some 20th century Indonesian (Yogya) silver that I've seen, perhaps from Ansor's Silver in Yogyakarta.

~Cheryl

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 08-22-2007 02:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you for your reactions, Kerpolla and Dragonwinkfly, that's good information I can use, that's for sure!

I've just have made some photo's, so you have a better total picture of both objects.

Kerpolla, I hope this is (was?)a spoon from Finland,the spoon is about 8 inches long. The bowl is cut in two pieces, as you can see.(The end of the handle I couldn't find in the mud of the ditch.
At the back of the handle are standing two marks the letter H and the number 20.

You wrote about 800,830 and 925 silver percentages they use in Finland, perhaps it's a rather old spoon because the other had the same model (from kaliningrad 1798).

There are some engravings at the end of the handle made with some points. The spoon is made from a stronger material as the one from Kaliningrad and this one is silverplated.

Dragonwinkfly, I'm totally surprised about the country were they have made these craw fish forks. I have seen the model somewhere at internet only forgot the name of production factory. When the figure 900 is the silver percentage they used it's a new one for me. But with cleaning and polish they feld flexible.

I thought the letters AS perhaps stand for A.Schultz from Helsingor(1893-1927)but that was a guess from my side. Slowly the puzzle is solved.
I send the photo's than you have a better total impression.


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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 08-22-2007 03:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Still one photo missing so one try from this side and I also want to inform that the grayfish forks are 8 inches long.

Greetings silverhunter!

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OWK

Posts: 69
Registered: Apr 2005

iconnumber posted 08-22-2007 03:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for OWK     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm fairly certain those are lobster picks.

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 08-22-2007 05:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I thought also the same, thank you OWK now I'm only curious at the solution for the other questions.

I've just found the same pictures of these animal showing forks and recognized it that they were also made in Germany by the firm
Wellner (started in 1854)in France they were also produced and who knows where else? In combination with the AS 900 and which period that's my interest.

These lobsters are nearly gone by overfishing,that's the reason why they copied them perhaps on silver.Beautiful done! I hope that the other question also will be recognized.

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 08-23-2007 05:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dragonflywink.

I've tried to find out considering the lobster forks and wrote about it, in the topic before, what I've found yesterday.

I think they were made in several countries and it was hardly to recognize the names you mentioned, but I think that Indonesian must be the one. Does the photo's gives a better picture about it? And is the silver percentage the same what they use(d) in Indonesian?

Kerpolla I hope you will have seen the marks of the spoon and I hope that the figure 20 is used in Finland and if it's possible I want to know in which period they have made this one.(of course in better condition). The bowl was totally damaged and I tried to repaired it. Perhaps in the future I will learn about repair silver works (that only will be for objects like this).

Greetings to you all, Silverhunter!

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FWG

Posts: 845
Registered: Aug 2005

iconnumber posted 08-23-2007 10:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for FWG     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think what you have there is not an H, but the sign of Pisces, and that it's a piece from Norway, 1820, with the other marks missing because of the damage. According to Tardy's International Hallmarks on Silver, 1820 was the last year the zodiac marks were used in Norway, designating the month of production (just confirmed that in Diviš). And they used the last two number of the year, thus 20 for 1820.

As for the lobster pick, I can't see it as Indonesian. I am reasonably confident it's European, although I'm not sure which country.

Tardy is a reference you'd probably find very handy, and it's not hard to find in either it's original French or the English translation.

[This message has been edited by FWG (edited 08-23-2007).]

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 08-23-2007 12:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
FWG,

Thanks a lot for your detailed answer, now the puzzle is solved for 99 percent at my side.

Most of the silver pieces are from Bergen (Norway).

One piece(1798)is from Kaliningrad(info by Blakstone),formely was Kaliningrad a German city called Koningsberg, until the end of the second World War.The other piece you have dated for 1820. The connection between these places is, that they are both harbor cities.

A seaman who bought this table silver for his family should for instance came from Kaliningrad, Bergen to the Netherlands. Perhaps they buried the silver (in the second World War)until it was found, it's now cleaned and polished and it gives the bright shine which will gave his (also) historical value. I never shall know the true story behind it, of course.

You mentioned a silver book Tardy, perhaps in the future it's possible to buy one.

I've just ordered a cd in Holland and they send it to me for about $9,- There is a lot of information on it. When I have received it I can tell more about it, if you are interested, but I think you have enough information books about silver. The name Tardy is often mentioned so it has to be a good one.

FWG thank you for your advise, information I appreciate it a lot.
Silverhunter.

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dragonflywink

Posts: 953
Registered: Dec 2002

iconnumber posted 08-23-2007 04:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dragonflywink     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
On seeing the full pictures of the lobster picks, they do not look Indonesian to me either. The first close-up just reminded me of the decoration on a Yogya compact that I used to have. Suspect that they are European also.

~Cheryl

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 08-23-2007 05:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dragonflywink,

Thank you for your reaction again, perhaps they made it in Norway? Only the AS 900 isn't solved yet. I've found the same forks on internet (6 pieces) with including information of a firm called Wellner. But I found this information since a short period. A German factory which was founded in 1854 in Aue(?).

So perhaps there will be sometime a reaction from a Norwegian member who recognize these one's.

All the best!

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