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tline3open  Spectacular English Teapot, ca. 1765

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Author Topic:   Spectacular English Teapot, ca. 1765
OWK

Posts: 69
Registered: Apr 2005

iconnumber posted 08-30-2007 01:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for OWK     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[26-1490]

Hello All,

Since I've asked quite a few questions (and answered very few), I thought I'd post some pictures of a wonderful English Teapot I just acquired, just for the sheer beauty of it.

It is diminutive (I guess that would make it a bachelor's pot in the nomenclature of the teapot collector). It is however, very well constructed (heavy).

It features excellent repousse and chase work, including a panel with two figures which I take to be renditions of the figures Romulus and Remus (the mythical child founders of Rome). The two hills in the background suggest this to me, anyhow.

It has a nice ebony handle, a poppy finial, and a retaining chain on the lid. Overall condition is very fine (not a single notable flaw).

It is marked for London, 1765. (slightly rubbed, but very clear) Alas, as seems to be my curse, no makers mark.

In any case, I thought I'd post it as just an object for others who might appreciate it, to discuss and admire.

If these kinds of post are a distraction, please let me know and I'll stop posting them. I just get a little enthusiastic about pieces like this, and like to share my enthusiasm with others.

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blakstone

Posts: 493
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 08-30-2007 01:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for blakstone     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh dear. I always hate being in this position, and working at an auction house I'm unfortunately in it often.

I regret to say that this teapot is neither English nor 18th century. It's German, late 19th or early 20th century, from the city of Hanau by either the firm of J.D. Schleissner or L. Neresheimer. (When I'm next at my reference books I can say which.) I've seen these pseudo-marks many times but, oddly, never in this combination, which does rather resemble English marks.

The marks would be placed differently on a true 18th century English piece - probably in a square, not a straight line - and the maker's mark would almost certainly not be missing.

Likewise the decoration is much more in keeping with the 20th century idea of rococo (those huge putto!) than the real thing. Knowing the difference might seem like a very difficult skill, but it really isn't with practice. The more you look, the more you'll be able to tell; it becomes as obvious as distinguishing a still from "Gone With the Wind" from a Matthew Brady photograph.

Still, your teapot is a very nice example of the Hanau "Historical" style, and a good reminder that expertise is an ongoing - and never-ending - process.

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swarter
Moderator

Posts: 2920
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 08-30-2007 01:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
In any case, I thought I'd post it as just an object for others who might appreciate it, to discuss and admire.

If these kinds of post are a distraction, please let me know and I'll stop posting them. I just get a little enthusiastic about pieces like this, and like to share my enthusiasm with others.


On the contrary, this kind of posting is encouraged - primarily, we are here to discuss silver, and such posts as this are never a distraction.

[This message has been edited by swarter (edited 08-30-2007).]

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OWK

Posts: 69
Registered: Apr 2005

iconnumber posted 08-30-2007 02:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for OWK     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Blakstone,

I've seen many Hannau pieces, but nearly always marked with faux Old French marks (crowned letters and the like). This is the first I've seen of faux English marks. (Thankfully it wasn't an expensive lesson).

I took the last mark for a heavily rubbed crowned Leopard. (which I suppose is what it was intended to represent to the uninitiated). The missing maker's mark should also have been a clue I suppose. (I assumed it was simply rubbed beyond vision)

My first thought was that I'd find an additional maker's mark on the rim of the lid.. but didn't.

I was aware that English pots are generally marked with a quadrant of marks, but assumed this piece (being diminutive) might be an exception.

Oh well... I guess I better stick to my safe knowledge base (American Coin) until I have gained a little more experience.

Best Regards, and thank you

Dan

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OWK

Posts: 69
Registered: Apr 2005

iconnumber posted 08-30-2007 02:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for OWK     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
On the contrary, this kind of posting is encouraged - primarily, we are here to discuss silver, and such posts as this are never a distraction.

Thank you swarter

These discussion are informative and enjoyable for me, to be sure.

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swarter
Moderator

Posts: 2920
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 08-30-2007 02:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The spoonlike linear arrangement of the marks should also have been a red flag as well as the excessive decoration - Human figures are more typical in Continental themes. Write it off to a learning experience, and if you like it for the decorative value it has, it is worth keeping, both for itself and as a reminder to be more careful in the future. Thanks for posting it and don't let this discourage you from sharing in the future.

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ahwt

Posts: 2022
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 08-30-2007 06:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hanau part 1 and
Hanau part 2 are two excellent articles on this unique city and the silversmiths that worked there.
Another Hanau piece, among the many shown on this forum, is this Little French Cup .

Both of these stories remind me that one should first buy what is attractive to you. The dealer I brought the cup from didn’t claim it was French and I several years later, having gained a little knowledge, came to the conclusion that it was French. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

Luckily for both of us the silversmiths of Hanau were quite talented and crafted interesting and well made silver objects.

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argentum1

Posts: 602
Registered: Apr 2004

iconnumber posted 08-30-2007 07:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is the reason I stay with early American. I know a little something about it but am certainly no expert. In the end all that really matters is whether you like and enjoy the item and all the better if the price is reasonable. Nice looking pot.

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Clive E Taylor

Posts: 450
Registered: Jul 2000

iconnumber posted 08-31-2007 07:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
An interesting tea-pot and a vital moral.
Always date any new piece mentally by style first THEN look at the marks. My first reaction was "this is never 1765" even before I read the comments.

All collectors have a very expensive education - but necessary !

[This message has been edited by Clive E Taylor (edited 08-31-2007).]

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agleopar

Posts: 824
Registered: Jun 2004

iconnumber posted 08-31-2007 07:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for agleopar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"My first thought was that I'd find an additional maker's mark on the rim of the lid.. but didn't."

OWK, your instinct was right, if it was English it would have had marks on the lid (also the test scratches for the assay if they had not been polished off).

Any object marked in the UK that has a smaller part, like a lid with a removable hinge pin will be marked, usually with just the lion and date letter.

I enjoyed this post and I too would have bought this handsome pot. Thankyou for lettingus learn too!

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OWK

Posts: 69
Registered: Apr 2005

iconnumber posted 08-31-2007 05:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for OWK     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Made myself feel a little better today by acquiring a pair of Frederick Marquand spoons.

They are incredible.

Thanks again all, for making my blushing moment a little easier.

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Clive E Taylor

Posts: 450
Registered: Jul 2000

iconnumber posted 09-01-2007 06:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Thanks again all, for making my blushing moment a little easier

We have all been there. He who never bought a "wrong'un" never bought a bargain either !

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Sheila

Posts: 8
Registered: Sep 2007

iconnumber posted 09-05-2007 02:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sheila     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OWK,

I know nothing about this kind of silver, but I can tell you that I think it's Gorgeous.

What a Beauty, I sure would be proud to own it.

------------------
Sheila

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DB

Posts: 252
Registered: May 2006

iconnumber posted 09-06-2007 10:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DB     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The last post shows that reproduction and fantasy style silver of Hanau, Schonhooven, etc. had and still does have appeal to the beginning silver collector - one can remedy the made mistakes relatively easily by consigning these items to auction or sell them otherwise. To become a serious collector of English silver - the most researched silver in the world (except for German silver from Augsburg)- it is essential to read up and for styles of English silver - Peter Waldron: The Price Guide to Antique silver is a must have. I also like T.R. Poole Identifying antique British silver, (especially his chapter about easily identifying an English silver mark) but it might not be as widely available as Waldron.

------------------
Dorothea Burstyn

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