|
|
|
| How to Post Photos |
REGISTER (click here)
|
|
|
|
| How to Post Photos |
REGISTER (click here)
|
|
 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 Continental / International Silver
 Help with mark.
|
 SSFFriend: Email This Page to Someone! |
next newest topic | next oldest topic |
| Author | Topic: Help with mark. |
|
robelle Posts: 41 |
posted 12-13-2006 11:40 AM
  
[26-1284] Hi, I can't figure out this mark. The round mark is similar to the one used in London in the 1500's, but what would the G with a crown? mean? Or maybe it is a french mark or something else. What would this plate be used for? Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. IP: Logged |
|
Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 12-13-2006 02:52 PM
My first thought is Hanau pseudomarks. IP: Logged |
|
goldresearch Posts: 15 |
posted 12-13-2006 04:41 PM
There were many "G´s" with crown in Europe in the last centuries: 17th century Antwerp (Belgium) 18th Ghent (Belgium) 18th Metz (France) 1755 Poitiers (France) 1780 Chateau (France) and further ones. Similar the cross or is it an "X"? Greetings goldresearch IP: Logged |
|
robelle Posts: 41 |
posted 12-13-2006 07:32 PM
I won't settle for Hanau just yet. I once posted something here on this site and got Hanau as an answer and it turned out to be something made by Elkington. It could be French because of the design of the piece. It could be an x. IP: Logged |
|
DB Posts: 252 |
posted 12-14-2006 09:14 AM
The crowned G mark was used bei Rosenau & Co; Munich,1903, a firm which produced antique silverware. See Scheffler, Goldschmiede Hessens No.483. Looking at a book about French or Belgian silver, would rule out a 17th or 18th century origin of your piece. ------------------ IP: Logged |
|
Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 12-14-2006 09:01 PM
Pieces like this are used with food where air circulation is important. I have used such pieces with cut hard fruit, like apples and pears, with a blue cheese sauce for dipping in the center. It would be great for crackers so they wouldn't get soggy. It appears that the lattice is hand done, which would lead me to suspect an early date. IP: Logged |
|
Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 12-15-2006 12:51 PM
I know bupkis about European silver, but stylistically this piece says "1835-55" to me--the roses, the rounded naturalism, etc. It could be a revival piece of ca. 1900, but it has the earmarks of the mid-century. It's so very much not an American form that I can't even begin to explain it...like the idea of food that need circulating air. IP: Logged |
|
DB Posts: 252 |
posted 12-15-2006 11:30 PM
I could not agree more. ------------------ IP: Logged |
|
DB Posts: 252 |
posted 12-15-2006 11:40 PM
There was a revival of "Biedermeier" - (a style for which the shown dish would be typical), beginning of the 20th century and society liked to dress up in Biedermeier costume, etc. - leading to a revival of Biedermeier as a decorative arts style which had an eminent influence on Hoffmann and the Wiener Werkstaette - for more on this, please see KHM, Vienna:"Viennese Silver Modern Design 1780-1918, edited for the Neue Galerie New York by Michael Huey, 2004. ------------------ IP: Logged |
|
blakstone Posts: 493 |
posted 12-16-2006 04:42 PM
Huh? I can say categorically these are pseudo-marks from Hanau. I have come across these identical marks, in this pairing, at least twice: once on a Mannerist style covered cup that screamed "Hanau Revivalist" and once on a box with rose design similar to yours. I have also seen these two marks with both one and two additional marks, and the crowned "G" by itself and paired with no less than four other pseudo-marks. Based on the other marks with which these have appeared, I believe that they were used at some point by Georg Roth of Hanau; I say "at some point" because I also suspect that they were used by another company which Roth later assumed. (Scheffler #483, by the way, is not a crowned "G", but three lions passant, crowned - darn his pencil rubbings!) I must also strongly disagree with the characterization of this style as biedermeier. Biedermeier, if anything, was noted for its lack of ornament, reflecting the "everyman" origin of the term which, curiously, comes from "Papa Biedermeier": a popular comic character in the verses of Ludwig Eichrodt. It comes from the German "Bieder", meaning common or run-of-the-mill, and "Meyer/Meier", a common German last name like "Smith" or "Jones". Roughly, it means "Regular Joe", and the style which takes its name is characterized by its simplicity and functionality - hardly the florid sentimentality we see here. Likewise, I disagree with its comparison to the floral rococo revival styles of the 1850, which were, to my eye, much more graceful and generally executed with skillful répoussé, not the embossed and cut decoration here. Don't get me wrong - it's certainly pretty - but I'm rather stunned that my fellow members don't see this for the obvious circa 1900 last gasp of Victoriana that it is. Or have I merely grown cranky and obstinate in this phase of my mid-life crisis? IP: Logged |
|
Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 12-16-2006 05:52 PM
Actually, I recall handling quite a few of these. Never thought they were a foreign form, based on where I found them. The marks were always uninteresting so I never researched them much. But these exist in reasonable quantity in the Upper Midwest. As the market value was iffy here, my concern was always to move them to the cooking crowd. Who were determined to avoid the soggy pear peril. There are foods were air circulation is a consideration. Cut hard fruit is one of them. These never seemed to interest silverphiles very much. But the cook and serve crowd loved them. IP: Logged |
|
DB Posts: 252 |
posted 12-16-2006 06:38 PM
Scheffler No.483 is a crowned G in my book, page 530, edition Walter de Gruyter 1976. Georg Roth uses a crowned GR - by the way this would be Scheffler No.550 (page 540). Biedermeier silver comes in plain and decorated forms, the most thought after Viennese Biedermeier silver is decorated with roses all over. Please see my articles in Silver Magazine about Viennese Biedermeier silver. ------------------ IP: Logged |
|
blakstone Posts: 493 |
posted 12-17-2006 02:24 AM
I certainly won't argue the point about biedermeier styles. Clearly your research is more extensive than mine; I look forward to reading your articles. I do think, however, that you are mis-interpreting the mark in Scheffler: I simply don't see a "G"; I see two small lions passant with a larger one below. I have collected literally hundreds of pseudo-marks and cross-referenced them with Scheffler, finding many new ones and a few errors; his pencil rubbings are sometimes difficult to read. I have mentioned my research into Hanau pseudo-marks before in these forums, and perhaps I should share some of my methodology. Basically, it is an extension and continuation of Scheffler's research. For instance, regarding Roth's marks, we have: Mark 1 shows Roth's presumed "official" mark (Scheffler #550) and two pseudo French marks, the crowned A and P (Scheffler #s 549 and 551, respectively). From the crowned A and P, Scheffler was able to identify two more marks as Roth's as seen in Mark 2: the crowned fleur-de-lys (Scheffer #552) and the crowned KW (Scheffler #555). All of these marks are shown in Scheffler as noted and attributed to Roth. Extending his findings, I note the following: Here we have the crowned KW (Scheffler #555) from Mark 2 appearing three times with the crowned G in question - twice with the cross, as well. It is this on this basis - these marks appearing with a known mark of Roth's - and not confusion with Roth's crowned GR mark that I make the attribution, which I stand by: ca. 1900, Georg Roth & Co, Hanau. And yes, it is a fruit basket. IP: Logged |
|
DB Posts: 252 |
posted 12-17-2006 11:28 AM
Bravo, I think I learned something - the magnified mark does show three animals - lions or whatever - my eyes are getting bad. So problem solved, around 1900 ( I thought first 1903 Rosenau)- and definitely inspired by the Biedermeier style. ------------------ IP: Logged |
|
IJP Posts: 326 |
posted 12-17-2006 12:27 PM
Outside of perhaps Russia, my knowledge of European silver marks and the availability to me of resources are poor, so I had nothing to contribute, but I did pay close attention to this fascinating discussion! It's great to have such knowledgeable members in this community as Ms. Burstyn and blakstone. To robelle, I hope you and other members continue to bring us these great challenges! IP: Logged |
|
robelle Posts: 41 |
posted 12-18-2006 08:49 PM
Thank you. IP: Logged |
|
Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 01-03-2007 04:48 PM
Hi blakstone. I hear your frustration and I assume it was the reason you accidentally didn't say "excepting Kimo, of course" in your gentle chastising of your fellow members as to what this is. I was the first person to respond to the original query and if you re-read my post I think you might find some comfort that not everyone was too far off.  IP: Logged |
All times are ET | next newest topic | next oldest topic |
  |
|
Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a
|
1. Public Silver Forums (open Free membership) - anyone with a valid e-mail address may register. Once you have received your Silver Salon Forum password, and then if you abide by the Silver Salon Forum Guidelines, you may start a thread or post a reply in the New Members' Forum. New Members who show a continued willingness to participate, to completely read and abide by the Guidelines will be allowed to post to the Member Public Forums. 2. Private Silver Salon Forums (invitational or $ donation membership) - The Private Silver Salon Forums require registration and special authorization to view, search, start a thread or to post a reply. Special authorization can be obtained in one of several ways: by Invitation; Annual $ Donation; or via Special Limited Membership. For more details click here (under development). 3. Administrative/Special Private Forums (special membership required) - These forums are reserved for special subjects or administrative discussion. These forums are not open to the public and require special authorization to view or post. |
|
copyright © 1993 - 2022
SM Publications
All Rights Reserved. Legal & Privacy Notices |
