SMP Logo
SM Publications
Silver Salon Forums - The premier site for discussing Silver.
SMP | Silver Salon Forums | SSF - Guidelines | SSF - FAQ | Silver Sales

The Silver Salon Forums
Since 1993
Over 11,793 threads & 64,769 posts !!
Continental / International Silver Forum
How to Post Photos REGISTER (click here)

customtitle open  SMP Silver Salon Forums
tlineopen  Continental / International Silver
tline3open  Are these real English hallmarks?

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

ForumFriend SSFFriend: Email This Page to Someone! next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Are these real English hallmarks?
Primroy

Posts: 42
Registered: Jan 2007

iconnumber posted 02-08-2007 10:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Primroy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[26-1346]

I read where one could post an eBay auction so as to generate discussion on what to avoid. I thought the following marks had a alien look to them. Both the bust and lion have a skinny look. Are these actual English hallmarks? The final price seemed healthy enough, but is not always a true indicator to an objects genuineness. The following

quote:
6 Sterling Silver Serving Spoons
270083917789

6 sterling silver serving spoons all have engraved initial �D� on the front, 1877 engraved on the back, 1 spoon is broken, hallmark Lion, Man portrait, Crown HCG, 8.5 inches in length, 25 troy oz.



IP: Logged

argentum1

Posts: 602
Registered: Apr 2004

iconnumber posted 02-08-2007 11:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Please show the mark on one of the unbroken spoons. Thank you.

IP: Logged

tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 02-08-2007 11:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A picture of the complete set of marks may help, but so far everything about these hallmarks looks off. 1877 may be a commemorative date added to older silver, but the design does not make it seem likely. If it was a commemorative date added to a newer (post 1877) set, then the lion's head should not have a crown. In an case, the lion's head (London townmark) looks wrong in general. The only logical explanation for the human head would be a duty mark, but again the silhouette does not conform with duty marks I have seen.

IP: Logged

vathek

Posts: 966
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 02-08-2007 12:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for vathek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I believe these may be Chinese export.

IP: Logged

swarter
Moderator

Posts: 2920
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 02-08-2007 12:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I believe you will find that these are Chinese Export. This pattern (King's Pattern) is commonly found, and the marks are obvious imitations, not exact copies. There was an article in Silver Magazine not long ago with a comprehensive treatment of the marks found on Chinese export silver (July/August, 2004).
The maker is Hon Cheong, Canton, 1840-50.

[This message has been edited by swarter (edited 02-08-2007).]

IP: Logged

Kimo

Posts: 1627
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 02-08-2007 02:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In the last photo it appears that at least one other of the spoons is broken as well, though it may just be a crack that only goes 90% of the way through or it may be glued together. That is an odd break in the one shown in two pieces - the edges of the break do not seem to line up with one appearing fairly straight across and the other a little jagged. Either a piece is missing or the pieces are from two different spoons. In any even, I wonder whether these spoons were cast to have broken like that.

IP: Logged

FWG

Posts: 845
Registered: Aug 2005

iconnumber posted 02-08-2007 05:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FWG     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just a hunch, but I think what happened is that one of the two pieces was flipped in that third photo, so we're seeing the bottom of one side and the top of the other. The last photo certainly does appear to show a crack, although I suppose it could be a poor solder joint. The description was from "a certified appraiser", so I'd hope they would've mentioned if another was cracked....

I've never handled any Chinese Export in a pattern like this, but I would guess -- given the likely technologies available in a 19th-century Chinese shop -- that they would more likely be cast than die-stamped, and perhaps cast in parts and then soldered together. In general in Chinese Export I see a lot of handwork (soldering, chasing, engraving and cutting, etc.), but I can't think of any I've had or have that include heavy machine work like die-stamping.

IP: Logged

Primroy

Posts: 42
Registered: Jan 2007

iconnumber posted 02-08-2007 10:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Primroy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I actually found more Chinese export flatware on eBay. Are these more desirable than the actual English spoons to collectors?

IP: Logged

swarter
Moderator

Posts: 2920
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 02-08-2007 10:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To those collectors who specialize in it, yes.

IP: Logged

FWG

Posts: 845
Registered: Aug 2005

iconnumber posted 02-09-2007 10:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for FWG     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
biggrin "It's just what you need if you like that sort of thing" biggrin

There probably are more active collectors of English sterling in the world than there are of Chinese Export silver, but there's also certainly more 19th-century English sterling flatware than there is Chinese. Until the last 10-20 years you virtually couldn't give away the Chinese Export; there were very few collectors, and the odds of finding one in pre-internet days were slim. The last decade has seen an increase in interest in Chinese Export silver, along with many other categories previously considered relatively uninteresting (e.g., Mexican silver), and this has been helped along by increased information published and/or distributed on the web.

But always remember the other old dictum on collecting: Every book that comes out is intended to increase the value and marketability of the author's collection. It is of course exaggerated, but all too many books -- including some we come to rely on -- have that as a main purpose, and as a consequence the research is not always as reliable as it might be if scholarly interest were the main motivation. This tends expecially to be the case in books intended as value guides (although there are exceptions there as well); if it gives values, be suspicious.

IP: Logged

Kimo

Posts: 1627
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 02-09-2007 01:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
1)Forget about what other people collect. 2) Forget about hype you see in articles and books. 3) Really forget about silver as an "investment." If you don't collect for the pure joy of it then your collecting will become just another a chore. Find something to collect that blows your skirt up, then go for it. biggrin

IP: Logged

tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 02-09-2007 02:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I totally agree with Kimo, whose comments remind me of something a wine steward once told me: "Our ancestors said that you should drink red wine with meet and white wine with fish, but they are all dead, so drink what like!"

Tom

[This message has been edited by tmockait (edited 02-09-2007).]

IP: Logged

DB

Posts: 252
Registered: May 2006

iconnumber posted 02-09-2007 11:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DB     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The pattern is a relatively common one in Chinese export flatware, apart from the marks it is always easy to spot it, because it is much heavier than English examples.
Apart from the Silver Magazine (mentioned above) a very good book about the subject: H.A.Crosby Forbes, John Devereux Kernan and Ruth S. Wilkins: Chinese Export silver 1785 to 1885, Museum of the American China Trade, Milton, Mass. 1975

------------------
Dorothea Burstyn

IP: Logged

All times are ET

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:


Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a


1. Public Silver Forums (open Free membership) - anyone with a valid e-mail address may register. Once you have received your Silver Salon Forum password, and then if you abide by the Silver Salon Forum Guidelines, you may start a thread or post a reply in the New Members' Forum. New Members who show a continued willingness to participate, to completely read and abide by the Guidelines will be allowed to post to the Member Public Forums.
Click here to Register for a Free password

2. Private Silver Salon Forums (invitational or $ donation membership) - The Private Silver Salon Forums require registration and special authorization to view, search, start a thread or to post a reply. Special authorization can be obtained in one of several ways: by Invitation; Annual $ Donation; or via Special Limited Membership. For more details click here (under development).

3. Administrative/Special Private Forums (special membership required) - These forums are reserved for special subjects or administrative discussion. These forums are not open to the public and require special authorization to view or post.


| Home | Order | The Guide to Evaluating Gold & Silver Objects | The Book of Silver
| Update BOS Registration | Silver Library | For Sale | Our Wants List | Silver Dealers | Speakers Bureau |
| Silversmiths | How to set a table | Shows | SMP | Silver News |
copyright © 1993 - 2022 SM Publications
All Rights Reserved.
Legal & Privacy Notices