posted 03-19-2007 12:39 AM            

I've been trying to post here since yesterday but keep getting "internal server error." I'll try this.

TIA.

BACKGROUND
I have some brass, sterling and plate, mostly received as Trousseau decades ago (about 4, sigh) and I cherish all of it.

Hope someone can help identify my recent auction acquisition. I've never seen anything like it.

posted 03-19-2007 04:59 PM            

When it arrived I became very disheartened because: it looked like thick slate gray raw metal (no silver left on it); there are many small and some not-so-small holes from top to 1/3 from the base, some visible only from the inside (they don't go all the way through to the front); and there is evidence in 4 locations where something had broken off. None of this was in the description. Evidently not a vase.

But the artwork is wonderful. It looks like someone actually painted a mural and wrapped it into a vase shape. Some of the boulders, branches and mountains look like an oil painting except the artist applied globs of silver instead of oil paint with a spatula. Riveting, makes you just want to look and look and touch it all the time. And the silver is different also. Unlike English and American (only likes to be touched with gloves) this silver loves to be touched. It quickly warms to the touch and glows more and more deeply the more it is handled by the skin.
But the holes and stumps shot me into a slump, I decided I'd been fooled, that the thing was junk.
But on the way to the garbage my ancient bottle of Haggarty Silver Dip screamed at me from the laundry room. Never before have I been screamed at by a bottle of Silver Dip, well, any bottle actually.
So I dabbed a boulder on the front and *pif* the tarnish dissolved before my eyes. White silver. I didn't do that again. My old Cape Cod Cloth quickly carnated moth-to-Monarch, as you will see. The tarnish wasn,t very bad at all, there are no spots tarnished completely through. Looks and behaves more like dirt than tarnish. Maybe its sashes are simply old ashes?

TOP & INSIDE
When the Monarch appeared so did what look like seams on the outside corners and top rim, yet there are none on the inside. The top rim is 1/8" of what looks like a bead of silver applied after the artwork was bent into (or applied around) the object, then filed smooth. It looks like a right handed soul held the base between the legs and filed the top as a last step; the file marks are not "standard" and cross completely from the most inner to most outer regions including crossing the seam. The Cape Cod made the inside metal go black, said black wipes off somewhat with paper towel but the result does not look polished (like the outside). And the holes, I need help understanding those, also, because I have experienced some deep pit marks on some very old tarnished plate and always the damage surrounding the pit, after thorough cleaning, remains even if only a wee spec. But there is no such thing in this case. The holes are on the inside, some don't even go all the way through to the outside. There are indentations from the artwork on the inside, a fine example is the crest. There are 5 pix showing the top and inside, I'll display one here and provide a "more" link for the others. I have added arrows showing the holes, seams, brush marks and indentations.

cont't...

posted 03-19-2007 05:05 PM            

Seams (or filed edges) are clearly visible in the following pic, I've added arrows to draw attention to them and the file marks beside/over the seams. Also I have labeled the 4 stumps where something has broken off. I have placed the labels for Stump1 and Stump2 in the direction of the tear, so the viewer can imagine the direction of what was attached. This pic also displays the Mark quite well. This angle of the crest shows the many little bubbles all over it, there are none of these bubbles anywhere else. It is the boulder labeled *pif* beside and descending from Stump2 (on the left side) that received the Haggarty *pif* treatment (it looks slightly brighter).

The next 3 pix show the (unpolished) front from straight (bubbles are visible on the crest). The crest isn't centered and isn't perfectly symmetrical, evidently eyeballed. The seams are evident in all pix, to me (now that I know they are there).

cont'd...

posted 03-19-2007 05:14 PM            

Moving around to the left side, we see lots of the holes from the top (1st pic) on down (2nd pic). Most are like pin pricks, but some are a quite large (to me). The artwork is indented on the inside, but not as detailed as the outside. The inside is dull grey metal and has many little holes that do not go through to the front. What could this mean? Do they detract from the value? The artwork boulders on the bottom are very thick, they look like they've been painted on with globs of silver (so does the other artwork).

ALL AROUND THE CLOCK: FRONT, LEFT, BACK, RIGHT

On the move again, the following 2 pix show the front and left polished (1st pic) from the top; and back and right side unpolished but lightened (2nd pic). More holes. The seams look like panels of artwork are wrapped into the vase shape then the edges (seam area) filed smooth. Some areas of artwork edges are approx 1/8" thick. There are tiny lines as if a right-handed soul held the base between the knees and filed from right to left in a slightly downwards motion, then turned the object and repeated the process for the next seam.

THE MARK

The following pic shows the Mark KR�A�N ZCH 1914 as well as stumps 3 and 4. The Z isn't as deep as the other characters and numbers. Something could have been attached from Stump3 to Stump4. The other 2 are not at angles that suggest they were connected to each other or the bottom ones. Furthermore, the stumps are large; what/whoever created them was very strong.

cont'd

posted 03-19-2007 05:20 PM            

And finally, the base shows the thickness of the artwork and that the object is, actually, an artwork that has been wrapped into or onto something. The base itself appears to be a piece of silver also, to which the artwork has been attached and the joins filed.

Whew, done! The more I get to know this item the more I hope it isn't garbage. Someone please take me out of this misery. Thanks for your patience and any input you might feel to provide.

posted 03-20-2007 03:36 PM            

As for what kind of metal it is made from it is hard to say without seeing and holding it, but from what you describe and from the lack of appropriate markings my first thought is that it is not silver but more likely a high lead content pewter or some other silver-colored alloy.

posted 03-20-2007 03:46 PM            

At first I believed it was most likely poorly cast. But now I vacillate ... The interior photos are not really clear but something suggests electro forming.

What do others think?

posted 03-20-2007 04:56 PM            

And here's a closeup of the mark. I think the ZCH looks separate from the KR'A'N, and the Z is not as deep as the others.

I've also looked more closely for thin plate and think I may have found something. If you go back up and examine the 2 shots of Stump4 you can see a rim of silver (or white light) around the dark center stump region.

When I rub my thumb around the stumps the rims stick out and are sharp. The exposed metal is the same color as the inside. Slate gray.

Does this help?

posted 03-20-2007 10:19 PM            

If this was a trophy, and I don't think it is, the inscription would not be in such a hard-to-see spot. Especially when there is an apparent monogram reserve on the front center of this piece.

posted 03-21-2007 03:13 PM            

quote:

---

The bubbles - what you call holes -

---

The holes are really holes, you can see them clearly in the first pic under the section LEFT SIDE. Here is a closeup of the top left side corner. I've added arrows showing a bit of plate that juts out from the edges of the holes.

The pieces that jut out are only on the front. From the inside you see the entire hole with part of it obstructed with the silverplate, which appears to be 2/32" thick.

I've looked more carefully at the others and the same thing is evident. It looks like the surface of the artwork was dipped face down, but not completed immersed, into a puddle of silver. Or silver was painted or sculpted on.

I see now that EVERY hole has plate covering part or all of it, which explains why some of the holes do not go all the way through to the front of the artwork (because they are so small).

On the larger holes (that go all the way through, as in the pic) each "jut-out" of silver is a different size and shape. Many appear to jut from the bottom right region looking out from inside (bottom left looking from outside in, as in the pic), which might suggest the panel was dipped from the upper left corner, but there are enough that jut from the top left region (and other regions) to possibly negate a firm commitment to that notion.

Could they have occurred as a result of a smithy securing the object in the top left region and painting/smearing/sculpting a swath of silver? If he was right handed he likely would have proceeded from top left to bottom right applying sparsely at initiation, more on the way down, the most at the bottom?

Paint me mystified.

posted 03-22-2007 10:53 PM            

This was spotted by a viewer in Berlin, who notes:

quote:

---

"Kr�nzchen" is a colloquial German word for people meeting socially to talk, drink coffee, play games together and the like. It is often - not always - used when women meet.

This is probably not silver and maybe not even plate. This looks like pewter, made in the classical mode of casting, the mold being made of fine sand. If there are lumps in the sand or if there are air bubbles during casting, one gets these holes one can see on the finished piece.

---

But why the 13? And why the 1914, was that really the year it was made? Or could it have been made prior and used on a particular date/event?

Were those woman's meetings like a Bridge party, and if so, what did they do ... play Bridge (or a game), have coffee and sweets and stamp an art object for the Winner/s?

If it's not silver plate why is it shiny like silver? Why is there a thin shiny silver-looking coating?

And why were the EN characters removed? And how?

Any ideas?

posted 03-23-2007 03:16 PM            

The holes are not holes but bubbles of various sizes and shapes that resulted from a poor casting technique which suggests it was done by a non-professional.

There are all kinds of metalic alloys that are shiny silver colored but not silver.

Silver plating is not accomplished by dipping an object into molten silver. If one were to attempt to silver plate an irregularly shaped object such as this, the standard way would be to put it into an electroplating setup which is like a bath using electricity to drive silver atoms from a piece of silver, through the bath water, and onto the object being plated. The silver forms a very thin and very even coating over the entire object - at least that part that is submerged in the water. The silver follows every nook and crany of the surface of the object being plated. From what I am seeing in the photos, I have my doubts that it is silver plated.

posted 03-24-2007 01:01 AM            

quote:

---

I believe the mark was simply badly struck, I don't think that someone bothered to remove two letters. The 13 is certainly no pattern number. "13." with a dot means "the thirteenth" (time). So whoever met, they did so for the 13th time in 1914 and this piece was made to commemorate that. It may have been made some time before that. The naturalistic, floral style would point at the years shortly after 1900. As 1914 is also the year of the outbreak of the WW I, it seems a remote possibility, that they had met for the last time in 1914 and that the piece was made in commemoration after the war. But without further info one can only speculate. Maybe the piece is silverplate, I cannot tell from the pics.

---

One said what springs to mind when considering the date (1914) and looking at it is that it is a Jewish item signifying “a well of hope” because it looks like a well with so many lovely flowers growing upwards. Makes one feel "up" or hopeful.

One saw the letters EN faintly, both saw the rise (bump) where the EN characters are located. Use of the loop confirmed that the mark is one (1) stamp that says 13.KRANZCHEN1914 with the EN characters not perfectly struck. Because of the stamp they don’t think it was made by an amateur.

The base (which he said was the same metal as the rest of the object) was tested with acid and immediately the metal bubbled and turned green. The conclusion was, therefore, that the base metal is not silver, not pewter, most likely lead. I was shown a wax ring mould, which I was informed is what a mould looks like; and shown how it functions. Also was shown a silverplate serving piece with broken off handles, which I was informed is the same situation with the stumps on my item (the stumps looked identical, except mine were smaller of course). They didn’t know anything about making moulds out of fine sand.

They did see the plate, especially surrounding Stump4 and stated they believe it to be silver plate. It is not thin and is very hard and strong.

They also confirmed that the seams had been hand filed by a right handed smith (as I described earlier).

With the loop they examined the bubbles on the crest and they are “perfectly normal” (whatever that means).