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Author Topic:   Early Dutch? Silver
Scotiasil

Posts: 3
Registered: Oct 2007

iconnumber posted 10-28-2007 02:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scotiasil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[26-1513]

Hi there,

I recently acquired this piece at a local antique fair.

At first glance I thought it was a Hanau or similar modern example, but on closer inspection there is significant wear and all signs point towards an older piece.

The main mark looks like Britannia but with an anchor to her side. The other mark is an "s" on top of "xxx" with another vague letter beneath. I have scoured Tardy's book but am struggling to see where Britannia comes in to the picture, the xxx vaguely corresponds to 18th century Amsterdam.

Any ideas much appreciated.



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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 10-28-2007 04:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Scotiasil,

I live in Holland so I have to react at your question and the city which is mentioned is Amsterdam(the city where I've been born).

So looked at internet at a website where they sell such silver objects, I recognized the kind of pattern. They call it :

    Loderein doosje. (dutch translation). In the french language it is (L'eau de la Reine).
I don't know which country started with this idea.

About your object, the three crosses are called in Dutch: andreas crosses and were used in the 18th century. Amsterdam like you said is right.

Because you mention a Britannia mark (which I've never saw before!) it's possible they put it after import the piece into Great Britain. (I am not sure about that). I think when you can mention the letter standing at the three (andreas) crosses we can find out the year it is produced.

I send some photo's of another one, so you can recognize the model they made in that period. And also it's good to see how the construction was in these days.

I believe at this one they put some symbols so I think about justice, hope and religion.

I send three photo's with my reaction, success with the hobby and enjoy your new loderein doosje.(nice object). What's the name in Scotland for it? Please send the letter.

The sizes of the one at the photo's are
3 cm / 2,5 cm / 2,5 cm.

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bascall

Posts: 1621
Registered: Nov 99

iconnumber posted 10-28-2007 09:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Don't know the first thing about the item in this topic, but judging by the seated female with the anchor shown in Silverhunter's first image which coincides vaguely with the mark on Scotiasil's item, the seated female with the anchor must have been a popular motif in 18th century Holland. Is there a bird perched on the hand of the seated women with an anchor on your object Silverhunter?

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 10-29-2007 03:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Bascall,

I will react at your question but I first wait for a reaction from Scotiasil because it's not my topic/subject.

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 10-29-2007 07:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can't wait anymore, because I want to give still any information.

The letter S good stands for 1767 or 1742 or 1717. I've only counted 25 years back from the earliest date letter I could find at this side.

Considering the woman figure can be the same but it looks like a little difference between a left or a right side looking lady. But it's a good notice from your side Bascall.

I wished it was mine(about the one I showed with the photo's) but I borrowed the pictures from a website, last time I gave them some information about Norwegian silver and they were helped a lot with it.

So I think it doesn't matter if I use these photo's helping another with information.

I think the bird is a pigeon so this can be a symbol for hope and peace(I think?) good used and also to use nowadays.

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Scotiasil

Posts: 3
Registered: Oct 2007

iconnumber posted 10-29-2007 02:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scotiasil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thankyou very much Silverhunter and bascall for you info. To answer silverhunter's question, I am not aware of the English name for this. The only examples I have found have been called sponge boxes or peppermint boxes, but I think this is just assumption. It would be fascinating to learn what they were used for your example and my one both depict religious scenes and have very similar marks. I'll check my Tardy's for the date letters and see if there is a close match, but I reckon its going to be 1742 or 1767 by the style, but I may well be wrong.

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 10-29-2007 04:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Short reaction from this side, a loderein box was used also with a sponge(that's right)and formerly they sprinkled some nice smelling substance. I think for peppermint they used bigger sizes and perhaps another pattern, later they used right-angled patterns for peppermint boxes.

But enjoy your loderein(sponge)box like I sometimes enjoy the Scottish pipers and drumband when they play and I drink some Scotch W. and drink to the health off all the Scottish people.

All the best, perhaps somebody tell you more about all these silver interesting materials.

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blakstone

Posts: 493
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 10-29-2007 08:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for blakstone     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The city mark is Amsterdam, specifically the mark used on small items, which did not include the fineness mark and had an abbreviated city mark and smaller date letter. That leaves the seated woman with an anchor as the maker's mark, and indeed there was one maker in Amsterdam who used this as his mark: Anthony de Hoop, working 1767-1785. (The image of the woman with the anchor is a traditional allegorical representation of the virtue of Hope, hence de Hoop's punning use of the image: old Dutch "hoop" = "hope".)

Dutch date letters were city specific until they were all made uniform starting in 1808, so counting backwards from any date after that is futile. Checking pre-1808 Amsterdam date letters, and looking only in the years the maker was active, there is only one possibility: the letter "S" for 1777 and "Z" for 1784.

Thus, Anthony de Hoop, Amsterdam, 1777 & 1784.

Hope this helps!

P.S.: Silverhunter is right, too, about the allegorical decoration the second piece; in addition to Hope, I also recognize Faith (with the cross) and Good Fortune (with the scarf & standing on a bubble).

[This message has been edited by blakstone (edited 10-29-2007).]

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 10-30-2007 03:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Blakstone, thank you very much from my side, for your good information, I've learned again a lot about all these given facts.
Greetings, Silverhunter.

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Scotiasil

Posts: 3
Registered: Oct 2007

iconnumber posted 10-30-2007 03:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scotiasil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks blakstone, that is fascinating information, and incredible identification! Is that from a book specifically on Dutch Silver or something more general?

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