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Author Topic:   Coin Brandy Warmer
Roger Nevling

Posts: 58
Registered: Oct 2005

iconnumber posted 03-07-2010 12:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Roger Nevling     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[26-1965]

I need to introduce myself and spill the beans on why I am wanting to be involved in your group.

I have been collecting silver for about 20 years or so and have reached a point where I have pretty much focused my collecting to American coin and to English Georgian silver. I probably have more English silver than anything else as much of it is still reasonably easy to collect, at least small items.

I am like many others self taught through trial and error and by accessing as many books as can be afforded and by of course referring to sites like this to glean information.

I do sell on E-bay once in a while but am not interested in using this forum to promote any of my sales. I am interested in learning about the shiny stuff sitting on my shelves.

I think I may some knowledge to offer but mostly want to learn.

Now, I hope to continue posting and asking questions, and getting responses in return.

I appreciate the hard work that those who moderate put into an effort like this and hope to have a collegial relationship with all involved.



One of the last posts in coin silver about the coffin end ladle brought to mind this brandy warmer with the marks as shown "TR" or "TP" with the additional little leg which is difficult to see but is like the RT in the ladle post. I to have been wondering if this mark is TP or TR and if the line that can be subtly seen is the tail of an R. If it is TP it could be Thomas Pons or Thomas Phillips and if TR maybe Thomas Revere.

Any ideas?
RN

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swarter
Moderator

Posts: 2920
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 03-16-2010 01:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Your mark is certainly TP, with a crack in the punch (as in the other mark you refer to). The elements of the letters (except the loop on the P) are unusually thick - more so than just from wear - and so should be distinctive, and I do not recognize it as an American mark. There is, however, a clear photo of what is undoubtedly the same mark (without the crack) in Mayne (Channel Islands Silver, p. 84) known only from one spoon, c. 1780, found on the island of Jersey. The maker is unidentified. The spoon is a Hanoverian "large serving spoon" with a full midrib, and well could be earlier than the given date. As a single example, its origin is considered uncertain.

Since there is no crack visible in the Channel Islands mark, it had not yet occurred when the spoon was made, and your piece therefore would be later than the spoon. It is a nice piece, too - is there any provenance for it?

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Roger Nevling

Posts: 58
Registered: Oct 2005

iconnumber posted 03-16-2010 11:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Roger Nevling     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I had not even considered this as not being American and so did not check the mark in any of my other books. It makes sense about the crack in the punch and I probably should have thought of that having seen that on some of my other Georgian pieces.

I wish I had some provenance on this but I picked it up at an antique mall in Missouri, it was being sold as plate and was a bit grungy but it just had that "look" about it and when I saw the initials and felt it I just had to have it.

I am slightly disappointed in this not probably being American but if it is a Channel Island piece then I am truly delighted as what are the odds of finding a piece in a Missouri antique mall?

Any other input would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Roger

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ahwt

Posts: 2022
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 03-16-2010 12:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Great find - those Missouri Malls are great.

The little dimple under the spout seems to be a common form on these uncommon bandy warmers. Ellis-Barker made one just like yours and they seemed to copy the antique ones faithfully.

[This message has been edited by ahwt (edited 03-16-2010).]

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Kimo

Posts: 1577
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 03-16-2010 03:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello and a warm welcome to our little group, Roger. Your introduction is most appreciated. As you suspected, there is a wide range of people here and some are among the most knowledgeable people around regarding silver. Everyone is more than happy to share both their mutual admiration of silver and whatever they may know once a person has introduced themselves, posted some clear photos, and assured everyone that their request is not related to marketing their things.

Sorry that your brandy warmer is not exactly what you were hoping for, but I think knowing it is possibly Channel Islands is perhaps even more exciting.


Regards,
Kimo
Contributing Editor

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doc

Posts: 701
Registered: Jul 2003

iconnumber posted 03-16-2010 05:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for doc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Let me add my welcome to you. I took a look through Jackson's to see if there were any TP provincial marks that were similar, and did not find any that I thought were a match.

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Roger Nevling

Posts: 58
Registered: Oct 2005

iconnumber posted 03-17-2010 03:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Roger Nevling     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you again for all the response and input.

Yes I too have looked through Jackson's and didn't see anything close.

I have not had much exposure to Channel Island silver and now that I am looking around for information it seems there is a paucity of it.

Roger

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ahwt

Posts: 2022
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 03-17-2010 11:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

I thought that you would enjoy seeing the mark in Richard Mayne’s book “Channel Islands Silver” The copy that I have was published by Phillimore & Col Ltd. Shopwyke Hall, Chichester, Sussex in 1985. This book is readily available in the used book market and is a very informative book.


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adelapt

Posts: 418
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 03-18-2010 07:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for adelapt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Your saucepan is on the move again...

A drawn illustration of this mark is shown in "Silver in the Channel Islands", Cohen & Bird, Jersey Museum Services, no date (maybe c2002), but more recent than Mayne. To quote the text with the mark:

    "This mark appears on a basting spoon c1780 and a miniature teapot both previously ascribed to a Jersey maker.However this mark is that of Thomas Peard of Penryn, Cornwall, 1731-1745. A brandy saucepan and communion plate by him are known, as is a Communion cup at Budock, near Penryn, made in 1735. Married at Budock in 1743, Peard was registered at Exeter Assay Office. Thomas Purse of Baltimore, 1776-1823, used a similar mark"
Although the mark is not shown in the "New Jackson", Peard is listed there on page 304, line 9.

You are very fortunate - what an interesting object you have!

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Kimo

Posts: 1577
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 03-18-2010 10:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That's great news - it is even older than initially thought. While not being a Jersey island maker is a bit disappointing I think it is more than made up for by the mention of only a few pieces which suggests to me this particular smith's work is not commonly found. I wonder if the reference to the brandy saucepan refers to this exact one, or to another similar one?

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Roger Nevling

Posts: 58
Registered: Oct 2005

iconnumber posted 03-19-2010 08:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Roger Nevling     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry for not responding sooner but when it rains it pours and I have had two computers go down in two days and a loss of internet at my work.

Thank you for the pictures of the mark from Mayne, I agree they appear to be the same. I will start looking for the book to purchase.

The attribution to Thomas Peard is interesting. I would be happy if this were an early 1730's or 40's piece. What do others think of the Thomas Purse possibility? To me the mark is almost an exact match to Peard, if it wasn't for the crack in the punch. When I get my computers back up so that I can post pictures again I promise to do so.

Again, thanks so much to everyone for their time and input.

Roger

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agphile

Posts: 798
Registered: Apr 2008

iconnumber posted 03-19-2010 05:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would say probably Peard. The mark is attributed to him in Timothy Kent’s “West Country Silver Spoons and their Makers” (1992) which is as close as you will get to a definitive study of West Country marks. It is this book that dismisses Mayne’s tentative attribution. Kent mentions that the mark has been noted on a communion cup in Budock (adjacent to Penryn and where Peard lived) and on a brandy saucepan with full Exeter marks for 1731 as well as the spoon to which Mayne refers. There is nothing about your brandy saucepan to make it unlikely for the period 1731 to c. 1745 (the latest recorded date for Peard when his son was baptized in Budock, though he could easily have been working beyond this). So, if you believe it has the same TP mark, though with a crack, Peard it is, at the later end of his career. If you think it is a different mark you would have to discount Peard. As a UK collector I don’t know enough about American silver to comment on the Purse possibility but to me the style of your saucepan fits an earlier maker better.

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Roger Nevling

Posts: 58
Registered: Oct 2005

iconnumber posted 03-21-2010 10:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Roger Nevling     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have finally taken some pictures. I also added some overall pictures of the base showing some scribbling and marks. Are these museum or collector marks used to keep track of pieces? I have noticed them on a number of different things I own.

Thanks again. Roger


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Kimo

Posts: 1577
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 03-22-2010 10:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Normally scratches on the bottoms of such things are:

Silver test marks where an assay office gouged up a bit of metal to test - the scratches you show in the photo are not such a mark though, since those test marks typically look like a deep zig zag or zipper.

Inventory marks - by either the shop that was selling the object, or by the owner. The purpose of either was simply to keep track of it and prove ownership if it were ever in question.

Pawn shop marks - silver was frequently one of the first things pawned when an owner came on hard times. Over the centuries pawn shops have scratched things on silver like their own inventory numbers and dates when something was due to come off pawn (if you do not redeem your pawn after so many days - typically 120 these days - the pawned object becomes the property of the pawn shop which then sells it to recover the loan for which the object was used as collateral).

Assay office scratch weights - sometimes a silver assay office scratched a weight of the piece of silver on the bottom of things they assayed. Though sometimes when you see a weight scratched on the bottom it is simply the marking of an owner or a seller who marks it to remember the weight so they know the bullion value.

[This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 03-22-2010).]

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Roger Nevling

Posts: 58
Registered: Oct 2005

iconnumber posted 03-22-2010 11:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Roger Nevling     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The pawn shop idea makes sense. There are marks denoting a monetary amount. Usually when I see these they are just random numbers. I just look at it as part of the provenence. It can be really interesting reading some of the things I've seen.
Thanks again. Roger

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Fitzhugh

Posts: 134
Registered: Jan 2002

iconnumber posted 05-05-2015 06:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fitzhugh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Roger Nevling:
[26-1965]

I need to introduce myself and spill the beans on why I am wanting to be involved in your group.

I have been collecting silver for about 20 years or so and have reached a point where I have pretty much focused my collecting to American coin and to English Georgian silver. I probably have more English silver than anything else as much of it is still reasonably easy to collect, at least small items.

I am like many others self taught through trial and error and by accessing as many books as can be afforded and by of course referring to sites like this to glean information.

I do sell on E-bay once in a while but am not interested in using this forum to promote any of my sales. I am interested in learning about the shiny stuff sitting on my shelves.

I think I may some knowledge to offer but mostly want to learn.

Now, I hope to continue posting and asking questions, and getting responses in return.

I appreciate the hard work that those who moderate put into an effort like this and hope to have a collegial relationship with all involved.



One of the last posts in coin silver about the coffin end ladle brought to mind this brandy warmer with the marks as shown "TR" or "TP" with the additional little leg which is difficult to see but is like the RT in the ladle post. I to have been wondering if this mark is TP or TR and if the line that can be subtly seen is the tail of an R. If it is TP it could be Thomas Pons or Thomas Phillips and if TR maybe Thomas Revere.

Any ideas?
RN


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Roger Nevling

Posts: 58
Registered: Oct 2005

iconnumber posted 05-06-2015 10:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Roger Nevling     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So the brandy warmer was used in Miles Harrison's new book Exeter & West Country Silver 1700-1900. I was quite pleased that this initial post to the SSF ended up with the brandy warmer getting published. Thanks again for all of the help on this in the past. And Miles new book is very well put together and informative.

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