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Author Topic:   scandinavian vase?
silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 08-25-2010 01:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[26-2030]

This week I've bought this vase at a second hand market. It was totally dirty and I couldn't see if it was silver.

Back home I was able to remove the green round vilt from the bottom and I could found the marks 830.S. and in a rectangle shaped silversmith mark the letter R.C. In the rand of the bottom stand the letter V, this means it is imported silver into Holland. In the vase are beautiful engraved two family arms from nobility- or even royal families? The engraving is beautiful made and the knot/bow above these family arms means (?), that two persons married from two important families.

Because around 1884 Norway changed the silver alloy figure from 13 1/4 or 13 1/3 into 830 S and the silversmiths also use sterling silver and stamped the 830 S mark in the silver, for to mislead the tax department. I wonder if this vase was used on the wedding day (diner table?) and after the wedding it good be used by the married couple.

I know that in Norway the family gave silver items to the married couple at the wedding day.

It will be very difficult to find out which family arms are engraved.

I hope I'm right about Scandinavia. I hope that it is from Norway or even Denmark (I hope Hose-DK (or other silver forum members are able to give any information about this vase.
Thanks a lot,
Silverhunter.(André)




The measures are 21 cm high, above 10cm wide and base 9 cm wide.
Including the lead placed in the bottom around 220 gram.

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Kimo

Posts: 1597
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 08-27-2010 11:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am not able to help you with the markings, but the engraving indicates this would have likely been given as a wedding present since the two coats of arms are joined by the ribbon, and also because one belongs to a man and the other belongs to a woman. The man's coat of arms is the one on the shield and the woman's is the one on the oval. I also do not see them as belonging to either royalty or high ranking members of the nobility since they do not have crests, and also the vase seems rather simple and modest which is not something someone would want to give to people in very high social standing. You did well to find this though - it is always nice to discover something nice hidden beneath layers of dirt and tarnish.

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 08-27-2010 03:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you a lot Kimo.

Of course it is very difficult to find out the families which this vase belong to. I also found some information, but not yet complete of course.

The oval shield belongs to a woman side of the wedding couple. In Italy oval shields were used from the 15th century. In the man's shield(which is split in four parts in the left up- and right down quarters is a lion holding a milled edged sickle. This sickle is placed (in the right part of the woman's shield. There is a central office in Holland for family coat of arms, perhaps I can send them a photo and put a question about this married couple. Because it is imported into Holland (by the V stamp), I wonder in which countries in Europa the 830 S mark was used?.

If I try to give it a time indication I hope it is from the end of the 19th or beginning of the 20th century or later. The rectangle silversmith mark the letters R and C must be able to be found in a good silver information book about European marks. I only have a little book published by Divis. The 830 S silver mark is pointed like 830 (center point) S (center point).

The Norwegian silver I have is only stamped like 830 S .

So what interest me is in which country this vase is made, by which silversmith and period and the most difficult will be to recognize the family coat of arms. In the woman shield is at the left part engraved a griffin. At the right side is placed a bigger milled edged sickle.

So it looks symbolic to me that the lion protect the symbol of the name/woman he has married?

I always interested in history behind silver items. I wonder what the meaning is of the three figures in the man's shield concerning three trees? or three clover-leafs?
Enough boring questions from my side but I hope to see any reactions.

Have a nice weekend!!!!

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Kimo

Posts: 1597
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 08-30-2010 01:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In heraldry, there are some standard designs that are used by many countries. One of them is the marking for ermine - a kind of spotted fur that comes from an animal called a stoat. In some countries these little ermine symbols are used to indicate cadency. Cadency means what order the individual is in line to the person to whom the coat of arms belongs. In this case, it is possible that the three ermine symbols are cadency marks and that would mean that the man in the marriage was the third son of the man to whom the coat of arms belongs (daughters do not count in cadency). Being the third son is fairly low as in most systems of that day everything went to the first son and the others tended to be without very much personal wealth or position.

The symbol on the woman's oval that you say is a sickel seems a bit odd looking to be a sickel. I have never seen a sickle before with those pointy teeth in the curve. Perhaps you are correct, but it could be something else.

The reason there is more than one design on each coat of arms has to do with the parents of the man and woman who are being married. When the owner of a coat of arms married someone else who also had a coat of arms, they were joined together in a new coat of arms that showed parts of both coats of arms. I do not know all of the rules and they are different in different countries, but you should do a web search for the term 'heraldry' combined with the term 'impalement' (which means dividing the field in two halves) and again with the term 'quartering' (which means dividing the field into four parts) to see what it means to divide the coat of arms in these ways.

[This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 08-30-2010).]

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 08-31-2010 09:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello Kimo,

Thank you very much for all the information you gave to me. Interesting for to know and hopefully it will give a solution in finding the name of the families.

I also try the central office for geo..... soon.

I have to read your information more than once (with dictionary), so I can understand everything you wrote.

Today I've got two lighters from around 1930 one was printed at the bottom with:

    baby myflam brit.patent-d.r.p breveté s.d.g.d.and the silverplate decoration belongs to H.H.(dutch silver factory)Herman Hooijkaas. and is marked with 90.

    The other one is marked with "830" silver alloy, also with a tiny letter V.

I begin to believe that imported silver was marked with 830 by the foreign silver factories because the standard was around 835/1000 (and still is (second alloy for silver in Holland). Pieces made in Holland most have four stamps concerning 835/1000 silver alloy the lion with a figure 2.

But I first wanted to react at your reaction and now I read it over!

Thanks again for the reaction from your side!

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Kimo

Posts: 1597
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 08-31-2010 05:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you have any questions on what I wrote let me know and I will try to explain better or use different words.

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 09-01-2010 03:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Kimo,

Thank you very much but I've solved the problem (I'm back to school), my results for the English grammatic were not an A.

I found also a website were translation of sentences is possible, until 500 words. So I've copied your reaction put it in the translation machine and the solution is superb a dutch explanation from your side.

There are more translation possibilities with other languages. I'm helped with it.

And my reactions from now on, I will translate it by this wonderful technical computer. Perhaps it is useful for other members from outside the USA the website is called : www.Vertalen.nu zinnen (transl= translate.now sentences. But of course there will be more or even better websites to help with grammatic solutions.

Kimo, I let you know when I have found out something new about the vase from ? and belongs to ? but I'm glad with your information.

Greetings,
Silverhunter(andré).

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jersey

Posts: 1203
Registered: Feb 2005

iconnumber posted 09-01-2010 10:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jersey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello!
You might also try also translate.google.com

Jersey

[This message has been edited by jersey (edited 09-01-2010).]

[This message has been edited by jersey (edited 09-01-2010).]

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 09-02-2010 01:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you Yersey, I will give it a try!

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