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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 Continental / International Silver
 French Silver needs ID
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| Author | Topic: French Silver needs ID |
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lagerlout1 Posts: 8 |
posted 02-17-2003 08:49 AM
  
[01-0980] Hello, This is my first post to this board, so hopefully all three pics will load properly. This vase I have acquired if about 7.5" tall and weighs about 10 oz. I believe it is FRENCH but cannot date it. The three marks are of a horses head, a ram and a winged horse. After searching through an old French Silver marks book, I have identified the horses head as a discharge mark from Limoges and the ram as a town mark of Bourges. The winged animal is a mystery. I realize French dating and marks are highly undocumented, but thought someone on this board may be able to shed some light. If I correctly identified the first two marks, the piece dates to the late 1700's! Is this possible?? IP: Logged |
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Brent Posts: 1507 |
posted 02-17-2003 11:20 AM
Welcome to the forums, I'm not sure about the marks, but the piece itself is very much in the Empire style favored by Napoleon Bonaparte. As such, it likely does date from 1795-1805. Great piece! Brent IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 02-17-2003 11:43 AM
The winged animal looks like a griffin rampant. What does everyone else think? IP: Logged |
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vathek Posts: 966 |
posted 02-17-2003 01:27 PM
somewhere on this piece I would expect to find a small makers mark in a diamond cartouche. IP: Logged |
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lagerlout1 Posts: 8 |
posted 02-17-2003 04:12 PM
quote: Thanks, I'll inspect the vase more closely when I get home! IP: Logged |
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lagerlout1 Posts: 8 |
posted 02-17-2003 04:14 PM
quote: Thanks! I am 99% sure that the mystery mark on my vase is the one you so kindly posted. Do you know what it signifies? A date? A City? A country of origin? IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 02-17-2003 04:31 PM
I found this on page 76 of: OLD FRENCH PLATE Its Makers and Marks by Wilfred Joseph Cripps 1920, 3rd edition Chapter 3 - Table IV Provincial Town Marks, 1783-89 Town = La Rochelle Jurisdiction = La Rochelle IP: Logged |
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akgdc Posts: 289 |
posted 02-17-2003 10:27 PM
Not to rain on the parade, but speaking as a collector of French silver, I don't believe for a second that this is an 18th-century French piece. The form and decoration are unlike anything of the period. It looks like somebody's thirdhand interpretation of what the Empire style was. Moreover, the surfaces look not at all like antique silver, but like modern silverplate (and pretty lowgrade silverplate at that). The mushy marks in their bloblike cartouches are unlike genuine 18th-c. French marks. They are clearly not genuine hallmarks but rather pseudo marks. To anyone who's looked at much 18th-c. French silver, this piece is as glaring a fake as, say, an electroplated napkin ring marked Myer Myers. The old caveat bears repeating: look at the piece itself first, and the marks second. IP: Logged |
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Brent Posts: 1507 |
posted 02-17-2003 11:28 PM
Hello akgdc, I was hoping you would see this post, and I now feel like a damn fool. I WAS becoming suspicious with the three marks from three different towns and no maker's mark, but now that you mention it the whole piece does just look wrong, as do the marks. I was looking at the elements, and not noticing how badly they were combined. Sorry, Peter, to get your hopes up. I'm afraid akgdc is right, we are looking at a fake. Brent IP: Logged |
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lagerlout1 Posts: 8 |
posted 02-18-2003 08:52 AM
Thank you all for enlightening me! This has been a very educational experience for me seeing as I do not know alot about French silver. Ironically, I just received an email from Christie's saying they would accept the vase for a future decorative arts auction and upon first inspection valued the item at $1600. It seems they were not paying attention to the details of the piece as well. I guess I will skip that to save time and embarrassment. I still think the piece is wondeful to look at and will keep it displayed in my home. As for it being silverplated I am not quite sure. There is a small nick in the base that looks silver through and through and no tell tale signs of "weird" tarnishing or discolored worn plating. Any other comments are welcome. Thanks. IP: Logged |
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akgdc Posts: 289 |
posted 02-18-2003 12:29 PM
Brent, don't be too hard on yourself! I think the problem is with the hallmark references (like Tardy, Wyler, and others) that illustrate hundreds of different French marks without illustrating any of the pieces on which they are found, or even explaining which marks go with which other marks. (Under the strict French hallmark system, like the British, the marks on a piece have to be read in relation to one another.) The hallmark books show so many different symbols from 18th-c. France -- bells, birds, gryphons, horses, flowers -- that it's easy for a novice to find one that seems to match the mark on the piece he's looking at. On eBay, for example, the majority of pieces described as 18th-c. French seem to be cases of this type of mistaken identity. Adam IP: Logged |
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labarbedor Posts: 353 |
posted 02-19-2003 12:04 AM
I agree with Adam this piece has as much chance of being 18th century French as I do, and while I'm French I was born well into the last century. I agree with his suggestion about looking at the piece first, mark second. I don't agree about it being plated, keep in mind the last time I said that I was wrong and he was right. I think it is German 19th century and worth testing, but just barely. [This message has been edited by labarbedor (edited 02-19-2003).] IP: Logged |
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vathek Posts: 966 |
posted 02-19-2003 08:00 AM
I personally think it would be interesting to send this piece to Christies and see what they say. IP: Logged |
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akgdc Posts: 289 |
posted 02-19-2003 08:34 AM
it sure would be! IP: Logged |
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lagerlout1 Posts: 8 |
posted 02-19-2003 08:55 AM
quote: Well.. I just resent the item pics (via email) to get another auction estimate request from Christie's. This time I have included a bit more info about the item, mostly reiterating points that Brent and akgdc brought up about its authenticity. Let's see how keen those Christie's people are. Should be fun! If you are interested, I can post what they say about it. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 02-19-2003 09:25 AM
Can't wait  See: French Silver is really German Silver IP: Logged |
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