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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 Continental / International Silver
 Help Identifying Markings
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| Author | Topic: Help Identifying Markings |
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TBC Posts: 134 |
posted 01-05-2005 04:30 PM
  
[01-2066] Hi, I'm new to this room, and would greatly appreciate any help any of you can give me. I recently received a small piece of silver from my mother, originally belonging to my late father. It is a small beaker (about a spirit measure) 37 mm high, 40mm diameter. It has a braided/rop effect below the lip of the beaker of 5mm. I'm living in Ireland and have consulted Jackson's and Bradbury's, but cannot identify the hall mark. There are two marks in all. The first looks like a duty mark; a face, facing right, with what looks like a "u" at the top of the head, an "A" beside the mouth of the figure and a mark where a hair might go into a tail. The mark itself is within a 5, rounded, sided shape (like a rounded pentagon). The only other mark is what looks like an anvil (or inkwell) atop what looks like a hammer and some other instrument. The entire of this mark is within a four-sided shape, the top of which is rounded. Any help in identifying these markings would be most appreciated. sincerely, TBC IP: Logged |
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tmockait Posts: 963 |
posted 01-05-2005 05:14 PM
It is very hard to tell without a photo, but the mark sounds Austro-Hungarian with the "A" representing Vienna. I suspect the mark you cannot identify behind the head is a number indicating the purity of the silver (e.g., 3=800 parts per 1000). The Diana head in the rounded pentagon was in use between 1888 and 1922. Can't help you with the maker. If you have digital camera, you can post photos via photobucket.com for free (click on how to post photos above). Good luck, IP: Logged |
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TBC Posts: 134 |
posted 01-05-2005 05:32 PM
TM, Many thanks. It would indeed be ironic if it were from Austria, since my wife and I just came back from a trip there over the New Year's break. Your sense that it may be Austro-Hungarian interests me greatly. I confess, that my first thoughts were that it was English (as most all of my small collection of silverwear is from, or Irish). My parents were, however, in New York from 1959-1965 and it is possible my father picked up the piece there. unfortunately he is dead, so I cannot enquire and my mother didn't remember his having it when I found it going through his things. I've tried photographing it with my (new) FUgi S7000 and I've not had luck due to reflection etc. Many thanks for your response. If I can photo it I will. (Are u a private collector or in the business?) Best rgds, TBC IP: Logged |
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TBC Posts: 134 |
posted 01-05-2005 06:56 PM
Please see attached link for a photograph of the hallmark I'm interested in finding out more about:  All help at finding out more, would be greatly received, Rgds, TBC IP: Logged |
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tmockait Posts: 963 |
posted 01-05-2005 07:12 PM
The photo seems to confirm what I suspected. The mark behind the head looks like a 3 (800/1000 silver) and I am fairly sure the "A" indicates it was made in Vienna. A bit of history might help (I am European Historian when I am not looking at silver). Many Jews and other persecuted people fled Austria after Hitler's Anschluss in 1938 and came to the U.S. if they could. I suspect a fair amount of silver may have come with them. New York would have been a very likely disembarkation point. Very interesting maker's mark, but I don't have a good listing of Austrian marks. By the way, British silver usually has the lion passant (side view walking) facing left on it, a town symbol (e.g., crown for Sheffield, anchor for Birmingham), maker's mark and date letter. Good luck, IP: Logged |
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TBC Posts: 134 |
posted 01-05-2005 07:16 PM
Thanks TM, Very, very interesting. Would you have any idea as to the date of this piece? I'm more used to UK/Irish marks where one can, with relative ease, establish the date of a piece fromt he mark. Where is the indication of date here? and if not, why? sorry to be such a pest, but I'm determined to find out more about this piece. Best Rgds, Tom IP: Logged |
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tmockait Posts: 963 |
posted 01-05-2005 07:25 PM
If I did not enjoy doing this, I wouldn't have joined the forum! I cannot do better than 1886-1922. The "U" over the head may be a date letter mark, but I don't know Austrian silver that well. Some one else with more knowledge of makers will probably respond, but perhaps the moderator could move this posting to the continental forum, where it might get a quicker response. Cheers, IP: Logged |
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TBC Posts: 134 |
posted 01-05-2005 07:47 PM
Tm, This is a picture of the piece in question. A humble piece of silver, but elegantly designed and perfectly proportioned. After all your help, I though you'd like to see it. Apologies for the slow start in posting pics, I'd never done it before and am a slow starter! On a side note, the irony I mentioned about Vienna was that my wife and I visited there over the New Year, the highlight being going to the Vienna Philharmonic's New Year's Eve Concert, conducted by Lorin Maazel (I'm a big classical music fan and was fortunate to secure tickets to this concert). During our stay, we visited several museums, one of which had a collection of Austrian/ Viennese silverware. On returning to Ireland, I visited my mother and asked whether I could take back the piece I have shown, which belonged to my late father. If you are right, and I have no reason to suspect otherwise, THAT, is ironic. Many thanks for all your help over the last few hours. Best regards, Tom IP: Logged |
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tmockait Posts: 963 |
posted 01-05-2005 08:16 PM
Lovely! Vienna is one of my favorite cities. TM IP: Logged |
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blakstone Posts: 493 |
posted 01-05-2005 09:52 PM
tmockait is absolutely correct in his assessment of Viennese .800 silver. I can add that the "U" is not a "U" at all, but a crescent moon, part of the head-dress of the goddess Diana, who is depicted in the mark. It appears on all of the various Austrian "Dianakopf" ("Diana's Head") silver marks from 1868-1922. (Note the commencement date of 1868, not 1888, which is a typographical error in Tardy and repeated elsewhere. 1868 is the correct date.) I can narrow the date range a little for you, though, since the "hammer & anvil" maker's mark is that of the firm of Würbel & Czokally of 7 Halbgasse, Vienna. The firm, first known as Vincenz Czokally, was founded by a silversmith of that name in 1864. They were prolific manufacturers of utilitarian flatware & hollowware, which were nevertheless high quality and (to my eye) quite elegant. The name was changed to Würbel & Czokally around 1896 when Czokally was succeeded by Karl Würbel, an engraver & modeller. That narrows the date to 1896-1922, so I would catalogue your beaker as Austrian; 1st quarter, 20th Century; by the firm of [Karl] Würbel & [Vincenz] Czokally of Vienna. Hope this helps! IP: Logged |
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tmockait Posts: 963 |
posted 01-05-2005 11:38 PM
After having identified myself as a European historian, I am embarrassed by not catching the error. The Dual Monarchy, was created in 1868. I wondered about the twenty year gap, since my source also says 1888. I guess I chalked it up the delay in changing marks to schlampferei (a German word that doesn't translate but loosely means "bureaucratic slovenliness," for which the Austro-Hungarian empire was known!) This was a fun one to decipher. Thanks to all, TM IP: Logged |
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TBC Posts: 134 |
posted 01-06-2005 06:54 AM
Dear TM and Blakestone, I am very much indebteded to you both. You have ehnanced my interest in silverwear. I look forward to conversing with you both again. Thank you most sincerely, TBC IP: Logged |
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