posted 01-01-2008 04:16 AM            

Hello all,

I'm a newbie, so I'm not certain if this post is most appropriate here or in the continental silver section.

I recently purchased an art nouveau creamer and matching cup/saucer, which from the Minerva mark I think means that it is french but the maker's mark has been difficult to track down. The creamer has an A-cross-B w/ star beneath mark, while the saucer/cup have the same mark but on these pieces it looks over struck by another mark (maybe the engraver?).

creamer

creamer mark

saucer/cup over struck mark

Any help on attributing these pieces to a maker would be most appreciated.

Jeff

posted 01-02-2008 01:21 PM            

Minerva (Greek Athena) was goddess of crafts, which might explain the choice of her for the silver mark.

Diana (Greek Artimis) was goddess of the hunt, but in the 19th century her figure adorned commerical buildings, symbolizing the hunt for profit. Seems a bit far fetched, but there you have it.

posted 01-02-2008 04:11 PM            

Considering the name of the dutch mythological figure like you mentioned used in Holland is Perseus.I send a photo with my reaction because than I know if this is Persues and if it is, than in one of my books it is wrong used and called Minerva.

The little book is called "dutch gold-and silver marks 1445-1951 (Ellias Voet jr.) page 60 explaining number 10 of the figure on page 61.and is mentioned Minerva head.

So that's why I react (It's possible that I'm wrong so I read the lines in the book again). But it is interesting when they use the wrong mythological person name.

Tmockait also thank you for giving all the facts. Also interesting to know.

posted 01-02-2008 06:16 PM            

Are there any standard references or artist-specific materials that would provide biographical information for the silversmith and retailer involved in the piece that started this thread? I've done a thorough web search, but have come up empty handed. Are both persons relatively obscure?

posted 01-02-2008 11:18 PM            

You missed my point. I was not saying anything about French influence on Austrian silver stamping, about which I have no expertise. However, you made a blanket statement about Blackstone's claim being incorrect when it was in fact correct. The Napoleonic Empire did exert control over Austria for a time. I am not sure what citizenship or patriotism have to do with the discussion. Like you I am interested in accuracy (and having fun!). I am a professional historian (who teaches military history) and a complete novice at silver collecting, so I try to contribute hisotrical background information when I can. I certainly meant no offense. By the way I travel fairly regularly to Canada and Austria, teaching at defense colleges in both countries (of which I am equally fond).

Happy New Year,
Tom

posted 01-03-2008 02:29 AM            

I was wrong; the Dutch mark is indeed Minerva, according to the all the Dutch, Belgian, French references I have. I swear I thought it was Perseus, and I swear I read it somewhere, but clearly my mind was only trying to resolve the nuttiness of two Minerva's in two different countries. Mea Maxima Culpa.

I took that out, because upon reflection it was pretty snarky and I was in a foul mood. No more late-night posts, I promise.

DB, all I meant was that the new French system of marking was radical: it abolished all guilds, established nation-wide, state-run assay offices, instituted decimal calculation of fineness, etc. Later, when other countries were confronted with the economic changes of the Industrial Revolution and fall of the guild system, those that had been within the sphere of influence of France in the early part of the century adopted assay office and marking systems similar to France's, as opposed to the variant systems that developed outside of that sphere (Russia, Sweden, England, etc.).

I did not mean to imply that there was a direct, cause-and-effect line from Minerva to Diana. I meant only that the style of mark - a single mark, often a mythological figure, which contained a code for the assay office and a number for the standard of fineness - was a French innovation, and that this innovation was later adopted by Austria and other countries, though not necessarily by the force or imposition of the French.

In short, I was trying to answer briefly silverhunter's question about where all those mythological heads came from: "the French started it."

Hoping this clarifies things.

posted 01-03-2008 02:27 PM            

Any other suggestions on tracking down bio information on this silversmith and/or the retailer?