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tline3open  French early fork - is there a similar pattern?

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Author Topic:   French early fork - is there a similar pattern?
ellabee

Posts: 306
Registered: Dec 2007

iconnumber posted 12-29-2007 09:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ellabee     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[26-1557]

Thinking about the French origins of the 'Kings' pattern made me want to learn more about French silver.

In my web reading I came across a picture of a fork and spoon from the dawn of European use of the fork, in a collection at the Metropolitan Museum. It's striking for any number of reasons, but one of the thoughts it generated was how modern it looks.

Is there a pattern similar to this from the 19th or 20th (or 21st!) century?

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 12-30-2007 05:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nice pair, beautiful engraved,and in good condition. Perhaps there are some members who recognize the marks on these two.

For to give a dated year, in stead of 1600-1800. I've till now never saw such a pattern but it is unique until other reactions will come with photo's of course.

When I found something like this in Holland I will react again.

Success with the solution and enjoy the hobby!

Nice patterns are reproduced for many years so I hope this one to.

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 12-30-2007 05:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've lost my reading glasses, so my englisch grammatic is not 100%.
(Also with)

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ellabee

Posts: 306
Registered: Dec 2007

iconnumber posted 12-30-2007 06:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ellabee     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hope you find your reading glasses, silverhunter! I'm lost without mine.

Below the picture, the fork and spoon are well identified. They're from 1683, before patterns were marketed, when only the thinnest upper crust were using forks.

What I wondered is if any silver makers had been inspired to bring out flatware in a pattern inspired or influenced by these items (which went on display at the Met after 1948).

Maybe it's just the quality of the photo, but it seems to call up a dim memory from my childhood of a New Yorker ad with similar pieces. That would argue for Jensen or Tiffany... or maybe I'm imagining the 'memory'.

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 01-01-2008 04:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You were wright. I didn't saw the whole article, down under stood the date that's for sure. It's a good example of perfect condition of these pair, after such a long period.

So if I understood your question : if the pattern is reproduced after 1948?(Or a look like?) After waiting for reactions for a solution about this, you also can try to get information by some local jewelry shops.

I've tried that once with a Norwegian antique shop and I received a name of a pattern where I'm searching for. Of course first you can wait until reactions from other members will come.

It stays a special pattern that's for sure.

I've looked in a book which I have just bought, but this pattern is not familiar in the north of Holland, form the 17th century. And at internet websites I haven't found it till now. I will keep my eyes open.

When I've found something I let you know.

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adelapt

Posts: 418
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 01-04-2008 08:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for adelapt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The English version of this pattern, called "Trefid", has been reproduced, though I haven't seen any reproductions with the engraving. This probably occurred from late Victorian times up until maybe mid-20thC or even later, both as single items (like boxed spoons) and as flatware sets (canteens). More information on this is to be found in "Silver Flatware: English, Irish and Scottish 1600-1980" by Ian Pickford (Antique Collectors' Club).

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ellabee

Posts: 306
Registered: Dec 2007

iconnumber posted 01-06-2008 06:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ellabee     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks, adelapt. I was actually thinking not so much of the pattern of the end of the handle so much as the whole 'look' produced by the abrupt way that the bowl of the spoon and fork drop off from the handle, and the flatness and straightness of the handle.

It can be seen as very old, but I can also imagine a pattern in that shape coming across as ultra-modern.

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 01-07-2008 10:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yesterday I bought a book about international antique. At one of the pages stood an example what looked like the one you showed. Difference is that this is a set of three, fork, knife and spoon and used in that period (1650) as travel set, kept in a leather case.

This set is used in Germany, guilded silver and also nice engraved.

I send you a photo next time.

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 01-11-2008 02:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Like I promised here is the photo of the German silver travel set from 1650. I hope it's clear enough.

By the way good information Adelapt!

Greetings to you all,
silverhunter.

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ellabee

Posts: 306
Registered: Dec 2007

iconnumber posted 01-29-2008 11:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ellabee     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've run into a photo that I think holds the answer to my question, but I can't link to it here.

At the website of New York silver dealers who specialize in 19th and 20th century American silver is an image of a set of hand-made flatware by Alan Adler from the 1970s, in a pattern called 'Swedish Modern'. Modern it might be, but to me it also evokes the 17th century French and German flatware in silverhunter's image and the one linked in my first post.

I'd bet anything that there was a New Yorker ad for the Adler silver back then, and my dim memory of it was called up by the Metropolitan's picture.

Does anyone know more about Alan Adler's silver? Is it likely that a NY retailer carried his work?

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FWG

Posts: 845
Registered: Aug 2005

iconnumber posted 01-30-2008 10:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for FWG     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alan Adler was widely marketed as a high-end brand. Apparently very popular in the Hollywood crowd from the 1950s on (or so), and from what I can tell out here on the other side of the country that's still true. If you search him online you'll find a good deal of information - I know from having researched a few pieces in the past.

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Kayvee

Posts: 204
Registered: Oct 2004

iconnumber posted 01-30-2008 10:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kayvee     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is some information about Allan Adler: Adler passed away in 2002. I believe his grandson is trying to continue the business. Adler's website is still up and running where you can see images of his flatware patterns. That large web-based auction site regularly carries Adler pieces and even entire services. The various replacement services also carry his flatware. Some of the retail outlets for his work were Gump's in San Fransisco and Bonwit Teller's in New York City. Silver Magazine ran a two-part article about him several years ago. There are active collectors of Adler's work. Hope this helps.

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ellabee

Posts: 306
Registered: Dec 2007

iconnumber posted 01-30-2008 09:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ellabee     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Kayvee:
quote:
Some of the retail outlets for his work were Gump's in San Fransisco and Bonwit Teller's in New York City.

That's it, Kayvee; thanks very much. I'm sure it must have been in a Bonwit's ad.

How strange is the human mind and memory! So many things have faded away that I'd like to be able to recall, but a picture in a magazine from thirty-plus years ago stayed with me.

And thanks for the tip about the website, too. Off to explore!

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Kayvee

Posts: 204
Registered: Oct 2004

iconnumber posted 01-30-2008 10:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kayvee     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In response to your original question, Puiforcat makes a 17th Century trefid style reproduction. The pattern is called Cardinal in silverplate and Richelieu in sterling silver.

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