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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 Continental / International Silver
 Need help with Silver Mark
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| Author | Topic: Need help with Silver Mark |
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Anm8or Posts: 6 |
posted 03-20-2013 09:46 PM
  
[26-2380] Hi: I am new to this forum. My father just passed away and I am going through all of the family heirlooms. I took our silver and silverplate to an antique dealer and she was stumped about this piece. She thought it could be from Austria possibly mid 1800's but couldn't identify the marks. Any ideas? I am trying to find out the origin of this family heirloom. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 03-20-2013 11:13 PM
What does your family think/believe/suspect? IP: Logged |
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Anm8or Posts: 6 |
posted 03-21-2013 12:51 AM
quote: There could be many options, but we're not sure. My Mother's side originated from France, Scotland, Germany,Ireland and England. My English ancestors settled in the US during the Revolutionary War and then Mexico. My Father's side is from Denmark and Czechoslovakia. I think the bowl may be from France, Austria or Portugal- but I am only guessing I did find a similar bird marking online:  France, Chartres 1784-1789 Flying bird (Paris Generalite) silver hallmark IP: Logged |
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FishW Posts: 21 |
posted 03-21-2013 09:45 AM
I hope others can be more assistance in regards to origins as I don't know on this one, but I did want to say thanks for sharing, it is a lovely piece. IP: Logged |
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Anm8or Posts: 6 |
posted 03-21-2013 01:10 PM
quote: Thank you! I am grateful that my quest for answers regarding this silver heirloom led me to this website. Before this, I never knew anything about silver marks, or that it could lead you to it's origin. I am totally hooked now and hope to take up the hobby of collecting silver. How fun! IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 03-21-2013 07:56 PM
I second Fish--lovely piece, and now I'm curious too. I hope some of our European members will chime in. IP: Logged |
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dragonflywink Posts: 993 |
posted 03-21-2013 09:20 PM
Not really my area, but the form, marks, and even the zig-zag assay mark would be typical of Spanish Colonial silver (there are also some similarly marked fake pieces). Not where I can check my references, but have seen that bird before, as well as the 'crowned columns of Hercules' with, if I recall correctly, two globes representing the old and new worlds. ~Cheryl IP: Logged |
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Anm8or Posts: 6 |
posted 03-22-2013 12:37 AM
Cheryl: You must be correct about the Spanish Colonial mark. I found a link to a 1754 Mexico Ferdnd VI Spanish Colonial Silver coin With my great grandparents living in Mexico in the mid 1800's, it is quite possible they could have purchased the bowl there. Also, it is quite heavy at 15 oz. I did read that Spanish silver is heavier than most. Thanks much for the tip. Now knowing it's most likely origin, any ideas on how I can pinpoint the year or maker? Karen IP: Logged |
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Hose_dk Posts: 400 |
posted 03-22-2013 04:07 AM
I have no idea. But i have checked Mexico and the bird is from Mexico. Sorry others i dont know The ears look new and my ref say 1900 for the eagle. The bowl however look older, but with my ref that proberly right in time ...1900hundreds [This message has been edited by Hose_dk (edited 03-22-2013).] IP: Logged |
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Anm8or Posts: 6 |
posted 03-22-2013 08:48 AM
I think I solved the riddle. I found identical marks from these candlesticks on a Summer 2012 Auction Here is the description from the Auction:
.....or perhaps my bowl is a fake reproduction? After closer comparison of the marks, they are not identical (bird is facing a different way, CR LIN is not the same font) My bowl seems to be in much better shape for a 350 yr old piece. I'm still stumped. IP: Logged |
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dragonflywink Posts: 993 |
posted 03-26-2013 04:52 AM
Finally had a chance to dig into my references, and found marks virtually identical to yours on page 185 in Leona Davis Boylan's Spanish Colonial Silver (1974), unfortunately shown as forgeries; page 195 shows a similar sans serif 'LIN/CR' mark, found among stamps in the Maciel shop in the 1930s by Lawrence Anderson, author of The Art of the Silversmith in Mexico 1519-1936 (similar stamps to those found on the cited auction pieces were found in the Apolonio Guevara shop). Anderson maintained that the guarantee marks depicting the columns of Hercules with globes rather than an 'M' were not genuine and that all the 'LIN/CR' marks were forgeries of the 1779-88 'LIN/CE' marks of assayer Jose Antonio Lince Gonzalez, but Boylan believed they were copied from marks she thought genuine, found on a pair of dated 1729 candlesticks (from the collection of the Museum that published the book), though no record of the 'LIN/CR' assayer could be found. ~Cheryl IP: Logged |
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agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 03-26-2013 10:24 AM
Interesting. If I had come across this piece here in England my first thought would have been late 19th century historicist with pseudo marks, possibly from Hanau or the Netherlands. Presumably there was also a vogue for historicism in Mexico. Might one be able to call the marks pseudo hallmarks rather than fakes? I suppose it depends on how the item was represented when first sold. IP: Logged |
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dragonflywink Posts: 993 |
posted 03-26-2013 01:39 PM
To my mind, pseudo-marks were intended to reassure the buyer that their item was of good quality, and placing them on silver made in a current style, like those found on American coin, or British silverplate, doesn't seem particularly deceptive to me (Gorham's and numerous other maker's trademarks could be interpreted as 'pseudo' British hallmarks) - but to place spurious marks based on much earlier marks, on pieces in 'antique' or 'historical' styles, especially without the addition of proper guarantee marks, smacks of deliberate intent to insinuate greater age to the items. The Hanau manufacturers identified some of their production as 'antique style' at 1870s and later expositions and in advertisements and catalogs - but acting as wholesalers, they could deny responsibility for any 'misunderstandings' regarding the age at the retailer level. Even today, with the relative wealth of information available in reference books, articles and online, pseudo-marked items are frequently, and often confidently, misidentified. Somewhere, have an old article warning buyers about 'antique' Dutch silver with fake marks, will dig it out and post when I get a chance... ~Cheryl [This message has been edited by dragonflywink (edited 03-26-2013).] IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 03-26-2013 04:31 PM
I am completely with Cheryl on this. If an object is made in the style of an older date, and the maker puts markings on it that appear to be very much like the original markings, then that is nothing more than a forgery even if the maker sells it for a modest price. If the maker does all of that and boldly marks the piece as a reproduction then I would call that an historical reproduction or such. And if a maker makes an object in an old style but then puts fantasy markings that are not trying to reproduce real hallmarks but instead to give an impression of hallmarks that any person with even basic knowledge would recognize as being pure fantasies then I would call that an historical reinterpretation or something and not a forgery since there is no way for an even moderately knowledgeable person to ever mistake it for being something it is not. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 03-26-2013 04:32 PM
I am completely with Cheryl on this. If an object is made in the style of an older date, and the maker puts markings on it that appear to be very much like the original markings, then that is nothing more than a forgery even if the maker sells it for a modest price. If the maker does all of that and boldly marks the piece as a reproduction then I would call that an historical reproduction or such. And if a maker makes an object in an old style but then puts fantasy markings that are not trying to reproduce real hallmarks but instead to give an impression of hallmarks that any person with even basic knowledge would recognize as being pure fantasies then I would call that an historical reinterpretation or something and not a forgery since there is no way for an even moderately knowledgeable person to ever mistake it for being something it is not. Of course I am not suggesting the poster who inherited this object or their ancestors are trying to pass off a forgery, but rather that they are the victims of a forger. IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 03-26-2013 06:18 PM
For me, this attractive bowl represents an enjoyable side of collecting. (Of course maybe I just find all collecting enjoyable) Someone a long time ago decided to make this bowl in the manner of a Spanish Colonial object, but they adorned the objects with marks close to but not exactly like authentic markings. They also added handles that are different from those commonly used in true period pieces. I think the silversmith that made the bowl was very skilled in silversmithing and could have made marks identical to authentic ones. He or she chose not to do this. The silversmith also could have made handles that fit in with typical handles of the period. He or she chose not to do this. If the intent was to create a forgery he or she would not have overlooked these simply matters. The fun part now comes in speculating why an accomplished silversmith would do this. For me “forgeries” of this type become highly collectable in their own right as they carry a good story with them and it is a story that every subsequent owner can complete as they wish. [This message has been edited by ahwt (edited 03-26-2013).] IP: Logged |
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dragonflywink Posts: 993 |
posted 03-27-2013 01:53 PM
I like the bowl too, looks to be well-made and now has honest age of its own - again, not really an area of any great interest for me, but personally, can't really see any problems in form or decoration for a piece made to appear of greater age. Suspect there were a good number of similar fakes produced, intended for tourists who wanted 'antique' Mexican silver, just like those who wanted European 'antiques' and ended up with new Hanau or Dutch pieces. Have to believe, that when these pieces were made in an 'old' style, marked only with what would appear to most folks to be correct 'old' marks, there was most likely some intention to deceive. Doesn't really seem all that different from the glut of fake 'antique' Russian silver that's been on the market for many years, continues to be produced because people buy it... Below are some scans from Boylan's book, showing a couple of Spanish Colonial pieces including one with similar handles, the illustrated marks like those on Karen's piece, and a group of various forged assayer, quality and tax punches found in one 1930s shop (the photograph of the Maciel group just wouldn't scan well). ~Cheryl IP: Logged |
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Anm8or Posts: 6 |
posted 04-03-2013 12:50 AM
Again, thanks to everyone who helped find the answer to the approximate age of the bowl. I was suspicious when I noticed the marks were "similar" as the antique candlesticks I found, but not exact. The marks would have to be exact to be real. They ARE an exact replica of the forgery stamps on the page 86 posting. I also was suspicious because my bowl was in pretty good shape to be something that old. So, it seems to be from 1930 then? That would make sense as my relatives lived in Mexico from 1850 to 1935. This was a fun adventure. As a side note, I never looked at silver before. Now I carry a magnifying glass with me to look closely at the markings. Thanks all...I am hooked! IP: Logged |
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jag Posts: 24 |
posted 04-03-2013 01:31 PM
quote: "Anderson maintained that the guarantee marks depicting the columns of Hercules with globes rather than an 'M' were not genuine and that all the 'LIN/CR' marks were forgeries" If I'm reading this correctly, then the pieces in the auction were reproductions also. Agreed? IP: Logged |
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