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tline3open  Chinese Cream Pail - Georgian Appearance

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Author Topic:   Chinese Cream Pail - Georgian Appearance
MBJ

Posts: 26
Registered: Oct 2008

iconnumber posted 01-22-2009 04:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MBJ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[26-1791]

I am from Sweden and my interest in collecting is quite academic; I like to find objects, where I have to do some research, but it can sometimes be hard especially in the field of European continental silver or in this case Chinese export silver. Swedish silver is as you probably already know, like British, quite often easy to identify.

Seeing this one in the shop, I thought that I had found a nice British Georgian cream pail, but when I turned it upside down I saw the Chinese mark and some sort of diet. The price was so low and the Georgian form interesting that I bought it. At home I started to read about Chinese export silver and I had a widened frame of reference of the development of China trade silver from the 18th century, when the Chinese began making duplicates of Western-style pieces to sell to Europeans and Americans and by the mid-19th century the style developed, Chinese motifs and styles were introduced, not longer being taken for British.

It stands to be corrected, but in my opinion this form of cream pail was in vogue in the mid-18th century and later they became taller and often they were executed in open-work with glass liners.
This one is flaring cylindrical applied with imitated hoops, simple plain swing handle, no traces of engraving and marked on base.

Height 1.97 in (50 mm), width is 1.81 in (46mm), weight 1.83 oz (52 gram)

I would appreciate your opinion and comments about this cream pail and if possible a translation/transcription of the Chinese text of the mark. Is the mark identified? Is it possible to date this pail by style?


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agphile

Posts: 798
Registered: Apr 2008

iconnumber posted 01-22-2009 06:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I cannot help with anything about Chinese export silver, but I agree that the style and size of your cream pail is mid 18th century,perhaps circa 1760. There are collectors of cream pails as well as of Chinese export silver so I suppose there is a risk that this could be a reproduction. However, the reproductions I have seen are all of the later, pierced type with glass liners.

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vathek

Posts: 966
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 01-23-2009 01:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for vathek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Late 18th and early 19th (to around mid century) Chinese export silver followed the English forms. It wasn't until later in the 19c that they began using more emblematic Chinese decorations.

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vathek

Posts: 966
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 01-23-2009 01:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for vathek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Late 18th and early 19th (to around mid century) Chinese export silver followed the English forms. It wasn't until later in the 19c that they began using more emblematic Chinese decorations.

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agphile

Posts: 798
Registered: Apr 2008

iconnumber posted 01-23-2009 06:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just in case my mention of a possible reproduction was discouraging, I should add that this attractive little pail does in fact look like a good find as an early example of such pails as well as an early example of Chinese export silver. I wish I had found it!

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Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 01-23-2009 08:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In Yokohoma silver work, the kind made for tourists, a small basket sometimes shows up as a salt dish. I have seen it partnered with a pump shaped pepper shaker. These were made for the tourist trade, with salts and peppers being a popular item. Another form is of an oriental man with a yoke and two buckets.

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MBJ

Posts: 26
Registered: Oct 2008

iconnumber posted 01-27-2009 02:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MBJ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am very grateful for your opinions.It has now been confirmed that it is Chinese.

Silverware from China wrote "this is a typical chinese hallmark,it pronunce "Hong Xing" in chinese langage,there are hundreds of such hallmarks in chinese silverware,so you can't know which exactly company or silversmith made this item."

If it dates from the early period of Chinese Export Silver (CES), it would be possible that it was aboard a ship of The Swedish East India Company (SOIC) trade with China between 1731-1813 and that it was bought or commissioned in Canton by the company´s officials.

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MBJ

Posts: 26
Registered: Oct 2008

iconnumber posted 01-27-2009 04:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MBJ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Have you ever heard of chinese "diets" or trimolierstrich? I am quite convinced that this was made on purpose.

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MBJ

Posts: 26
Registered: Oct 2008

iconnumber posted 01-27-2009 04:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MBJ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry, tremolierstrich.

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agphile

Posts: 798
Registered: Apr 2008

iconnumber posted 01-27-2009 04:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I haven't heard of a diet on Chinese silver. There wasn't an assay office to authenticate silver items before export as far as I know. Might the scratch be later? It is quite feasible that an owner in Europe wanted to check that the item was indeed silver, and of what fineness.

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Kimo

Posts: 1627
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 01-27-2009 05:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The dating of this would seem to be very difficult. One part about it that bothers me is the handle and the way the ends of the handle are roughly finished by simply clipping the ends and bending them into loops without regard for the way the ends fit against the handle as they curve back to it to close the loop. They appear to have been made rather quickly and without the greater attention to detail that the bucket part seems to have. My experience with old Chinese and Japanese silver is the smiths tended to put a great deal of care into making their work as perfect as possible. Perhaps this one is less so because it was only meant for the tourist or export trade whenever it was made, or perhaps it is a later repair?

[This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 01-27-2009).]

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MBJ

Posts: 26
Registered: Oct 2008

iconnumber posted 01-27-2009 05:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MBJ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the prompt answers. Yes I agree it seems quite logic that the diet was made by a Westerner and I fully agree with you Kimo, the worst executed thing is the handle, not the parts of it on the body. I have compared handles with Georgian ones sold at major auction houses. There are plain ones that seem to look like this one. It is hard to see looking at a small picture. But the majority of them; fabricated in the mid 18th century are more elaborate and I will say a bit more "technical".

Best regards/ MBJ

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