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tline3open  silver dutch? spoon.

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Author Topic:   silver dutch? spoon.
silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 01-09-2009 04:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Today I received by post my oldest dutch (I hope) spoon.

One of the marks I recognized by the city mark of the town called:"Utrecht" (and this mark was used in the 18th century.The mark I found in the little book of jan divis called silber stempel aus der welt number 1870 shows the mark.The other mark is the crowned capital letter W. The mark of the silversmith I can't find at this side, the only thing I can make off that it looks like a standing man with a big club in his hands. There is also a small lined worn out stamp between the three stamps.(But is not to recognize any more). The photo's shows the back of the spoon, the connecting of the bowl to the steel, the marks and the worn out name and figures 45 ? at the end of the steel. It will be difficult to find out this continental piece from Holland but I hope someone can tell me anything about his history!

Thanks a lot
Silverhunter.

I try to send photo's tomorrow there is no good connection with the provider.

Next try:




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MBJ

Posts: 26
Registered: Oct 2008

iconnumber posted 01-10-2009 12:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MBJ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello Silverhunter! You've got a nice and interesting spoon, though I am a bit concerned about origin. I wish I could erase your question mark, but probably I will add another...

The crowned "V" (not the capital "W") in a shield is the dutch tax mark applied to larger articles of foreign made silver.

I will continue to search for the other marks.

Best regards/MBJ

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 01-10-2009 12:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you MBJ for quick answer and when I look better with a lens you're right about the V mark. Does it mean now that it can be a spoon made outside Holland? It's a pity that some marks are rather worn out and the date year indication at the steel can be ..45?

I'm curious about the crowned W letter from the first photo. I only szw a few look likes from France. The silversmith will be a problem for research.

So thank you for information and research at your side,
greetings silverhunter(andre).

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MBJ

Posts: 26
Registered: Oct 2008

iconnumber posted 01-10-2009 12:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MBJ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
After reading Blakstones answer about the Gerardus Peeters´spoon An old spoon

"The crowned “v” – was a tax mark created with the new Netherlands marks of 1814; it was used until 1853 on large silver items offered for re-sale which were unmarked or which bore invalid marks (whether of national or foreign origin) to indicate that the 10% marking duty had been paid. (It was also used on imported items until 1893.)"

Best regards/MBJ

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 01-11-2009 05:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you again MBJ I understood what Blakstone wrote in his reaction, but the mark looks very much at the city mark I mentioned. The city mark of Utrecht, perhaps that the assay office was placed in that period in Utrecht? Now we have still a few assay control offices in Holland (of course). They also used the letter J mark for older pieces and marked them with the letter if there wasn't paid tax over them. There is enough information about all the marks but financially it's a question if there is enough money to spend for buying these books. I've bought some(second hand) but I don't have all titles of course.

Perhaps there is possibility to look for the silversmith's mark at internet. In Holland there's one silver information site where you can find about 800 marks with photo's and information. Some others give list without photo's but are also good with information. I think the mark is a symbolic name for(if it's dutch?)the silversmith.

I'm still curious about the crowned W and of course the silversmith mark, but patient(I learned that) wait hopefully for more information.

MBJ, I noticed that you're from Sweden do you collect spoons or different items?

It's great to contact with all that nationalities and get or give information from over the whole world.

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 01-11-2009 05:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't know how but at my side the photo's are dissapeared, perhaps I have to send them again?

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 01-11-2009 06:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The standing figure:man with club stands for the city mark called : 's-Hertogenbosch(place in South-Holland). Other spoons which I've found are dated around 1780.
I'm beginning to believe is a real one.

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MBJ

Posts: 26
Registered: Oct 2008

iconnumber posted 01-11-2009 11:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MBJ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I suppose that you found that the "wild man" was used in 's-Hertogenbosch before 1800. Could the crowned capital "W" be a year mark? The maker's mark is right below the engraving?

Yes I collect and buy silver that I like, find interesting, usable and can afford.

If you have knowledge about styles, marks etc. it is easier to find affordable pieces.

If you are willing to learn and find it amusing to do some research you are able to find bargains among those things, which are rejected by other possible buyers and sellers.

Have patience! I think that you are on the right track!

Best regards/ MBJ

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blakstone

Posts: 493
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 01-11-2009 04:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for blakstone     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The 16th-18th city mark for 's-Hertogenbosch (also called “Den Bosch” and known in French as “Bois-le-Duc”) was a tree, taken from the city arms. The “wildman” is a supporter in those arms, and it was used in the last quarter of the 18th century as a mark on small articles of silver. (The tree was still used on large items.)

“W” was the 's-Hertogenbosch year letter for 1771 and 1796. Without a maker’s mark to go narrow it down, I’d be hard pressed to pick one over the other.

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 01-11-2009 04:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
End conclusion at my side is that the city mark stamp was used for the town called :
's-Hertogenbosch(translation is duke of the forest/wood)or the city is called Den Bosch.

The arms of the town showing two "wild man" from about 1670 and in the silver mark they used one wild man (person) with a club.(in the 17th and 18th century).

About the crowned W you're right at a internet side I found that the crowned letter B stand for 1776 so if every year the letters of the alphabet(26)were used the letter W could be 1797.

When I take the spoon in my hand and look at the position of my forefinger it goes over the place were the rectangular mark is nearly totally worn out.

So that confirm (the normal worn out process at that place).

In the rectangular mark I can't see clear letters standing but I suppose that there will have stand two or three letters.
The worn out(hardly recognized) letters at the bottom of the steel will form the name of the owner in that period and dates can stand for everything.

So the tax mark, city mark, year letter is clear to me. The silversmith will always be a ? for me and we have put enough energy in this spoon so thanks for your replies I know some information about Norwegian silver and Norge S�lv(smeds) but not from Sweden.

Perhaps(I hope)you will show once a silver item from your side?

Many regards,
andre(silverhunter).

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 01-11-2009 05:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Blakstone,

THANK YOU very much for your excellent total information.

It was a surprise to get your reaction about the same time I wrote my conclusion.

You confirmed all ?????? so I will read it over, because time is running fast and tomorrow starts a early day.

Many regards,
andre.

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