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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 Continental / International Silver
 Silvermarks "P.Thorensen 830"? (Page 1)
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| Author | Topic: Silvermarks "P.Thorensen 830"? |
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Elisabeth7291 Posts: 53 |
posted 05-21-2009 03:18 PM
  
[26-1849] One of the pieces that my husband and I just inherited from his family, I am looking for more information about this silver maker (which will hopefully lead me to the pattern as well). I can't find any reference anywhere on the internet about a P.Thoresen. My husbands family was from Norway and immigrated to New York City in 1919. (They made numerous trips between the two as well.) In the first photo you'll also see the spoon was engraved to my husband's father - "Vilhelm - 30/4-05" Norwegian "William" and the date given - April 5, 1930. IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 05-23-2009 01:34 AM
Lovely spoon, and so nice to know the history behind it. The pattern is generally known as 'Pointed'. The work on the front is probably typical of Norwegian work, nicely done. Does the date have any signifigance? IP: Logged |
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bascall Posts: 1629 |
posted 05-23-2009 03:13 AM
Very tasteful. Thank you for redoing the images. They're better than just about all of mine. IP: Logged |
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Hose_dk Posts: 400 |
posted 05-23-2009 10:34 AM
To the best of my knowledge the date is. April 30th 1905. Thats the way we write. So unless you know the person/date in question I will claim that my date is the correct one. IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 05-23-2009 05:35 PM
It is rear that there isn't to be find a lot of P.Thoresen at internet. I only found one sugar spoon made for the year of 1890. The bowl was like a leaf and it had a twisted/curly stem. It was made by P.Thoresen so he worked also for 1890 with silver. Perhaps when you know the place were he worked and knowing some other silversmiths from that period around late 19th century and early 20th century in that same area it good give a link. Until now I didn't knew P.Thoresen. I can give it a try and can ask a antiquair in Tønsberg. I've asked him other silversmiths and patterns from Norway and he also helped me a lot. IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 05-25-2009 10:14 AM
I've found perhaps a family relatif a certain Per Thoresen in Tromsø worked in the period around 1843 and made knives. IP: Logged |
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Elisabeth7291 Posts: 53 |
posted 05-26-2009 07:52 AM
We actually think the date means April 5, 1930. Vilhelm is my husband's father & he was born in April 1929. There are other pieces by P. Thoresen - including a matching fork to this spoon. They are being shipped to me & I'll post as soon as I can. My husband had an aunt & uncle & all three of the children have forks & spoons with either their name or initials that don't quite match up to their birthdate - they are anywhere from 6 months to a year off. Our best guess since they were already living in the US at this time, is that the pieces were gifts from family members in Norway, perhaps the first time they met the new baby? IP: Logged |
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Elisabeth7291 Posts: 53 |
posted 05-26-2009 07:54 AM
And, thanks to all for the very helpful information! IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 05-26-2009 12:01 PM
I agree that the 30/4-05 is likely April 5, 1930. The other possibility is May 4, 1930 but I think April 5 is more likely because of the zero in 05. This implies that in this system of writing a date the zero could be another number such as a 1 or a 2 which would make sense if one were distinguish it from the 15th or 25th of the month. Since there is no 15th or 25 month adding a zero to this part would make no sense. Another possibility other than your relatives not seeing the infants for a while is they could be christening gifts with the dates matching their christenings. Do you have a family bible or other such record that shows these dates? IP: Logged |
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Elisabeth7291 Posts: 53 |
posted 05-26-2009 01:08 PM
Kimo - excellent thought. We don't have the records that I know of... they were Lutheran. I'll be on the lookout for that type of information. Thanks! IP: Logged |
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dragonflywink Posts: 993 |
posted 05-26-2009 03:42 PM
Have always known this Norwegian style with various engravings as "Spissgravert" patterns, if I recall correctly, translates to "pointed engraved" or "tip engraved". Personally, have a hard time seeing this as other than the typical day/month/year dating - are you sure that there wasn't another Vilhelm a generation earlier? The Christening gift thought is a good one, a full size spoon and fork were often presented, along with perhaps a napkin ring and/or other pieces. ~Cheryl IP: Logged |
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Hose_dk Posts: 400 |
posted 05-26-2009 05:55 PM
being a dane I should know how we write time and date. IP: Logged |
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bascall Posts: 1629 |
posted 05-26-2009 08:11 PM
I'll go along with 30 April 1905. It seems Scandinavians would be likely to use 05 for the year which is similar to the way we would use '05. The zero for the single digit year in our use and their use is not insignificant. It indicates that the number was paired down from four places to two places. Also the forward slash mark differentiates this style of dating from the formal day, month, year format. [This message has been edited by bascall (edited 05-26-2009).] IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 05-27-2009 03:35 AM
Just a thought sometimes the design/pattern can be older than the date of it, family pieces can be given or be inherit by the family and be dated later for a special event like birth, wedding etc. Like we all know of course. But sometimes it is difficult when we don't know the period the pattern and decoration style is not familiar to a owner. o5 could be also 1805 but in this case it is known as 1905 and even the owner is mentioned. I think family pieces must always stay in the line of the family. Or nowadays the most of the posterity don't like silver anymore(but that was another topic). Fools they are for don't have attention for that beautiful shinning material also from Norway. I'm glad that sometimes Scandinavian silver is also showed, because I found it a group of stylistic silversmiths making their own patterns and use their own figurative decoration. Thanks for showing! IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 05-27-2009 04:11 AM
I've also one piece made by Aasen (Norway) and the date is pointed like "15de Mai 1870", I wonder untill which period they used the pointed figures as date indication? If I may put this question at this topic ofcourse? The question has a scandinavian character. IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 06-11-2009 05:22 AM
Short late reaction is that the 830 S alloy is used from around 1880 before that period the silver was indicated with 13 1/3 or 13 1/4. So it has to be 1905 and concerning the date they used day/month/year indication. Like Hose_DK (from Denmark)explained earlier. IP: Logged |
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Elisabeth7291 Posts: 53 |
posted 06-11-2009 08:59 AM
Yes, I am now convinced that the date is 1905 and not 1930 - which means the 'Vilhelm' is my husband's grandfather & not his father. There are a couple of other pieces in the collection that we just received that have this same date on them. However, I'm having a tough time figuring out what the significance of the date would be. This Vilhelm was born in May 1890. He was married in August 1915. Also, one of the pieces (I'll post pictures later) that has this date looks like a baby spoon to me - it is a miniature spoon. It isn't making sense. Can the Norwegian posters on her help me with the significant date for a 15 year old? IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 06-14-2009 04:10 AM
I suppose that will take fifteen years to find out, I give it up! IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 06-14-2009 04:12 AM
Will you please in the future show more of your collection, I enjoy it a lot. Thanks for showing this one! IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 06-15-2009 12:49 AM
Fifteen is a bit late, but Confirmation is a major Lutheran rite of passage. Usually comes at 13 or 14, but 15 is not unusual. When I was confirmed in the early 60's, the study period with weekly classes, exams and questioning had been cut down to only 2 years. My grandmother's took 4 years of study before she could be accepted into the Lutheran Church. In 1905, Easter was on April 23, found a chart of it by Googling. April 30 would have been the week after Easter, a fairly common date for Lutheran Confirmations. This assumes that your ancestor was a Lutheran like the other 99% of the population of Norway. Lutheran Confirmation used to be a major event, much more so than High School graduation. The process required study of Dr Luther's Small/Little Catechism, the Old and New Testaments, the History of the Lutheran Church, Ancient Chrisitanity, and other topics. It was really comprehensive. Anyone who missed 2 classes had to start over again from scratch. So, even when it was -30' everyone showed up. One side effect of the Lutheran Confirmation process was that Scandanavia achieved near universal literacy over 400 years ago. If you know the Lutheran Church he was a member of, you could check with them. Or look in a family Bible or Måsbok for it. The word you are seeking is Konfirmerade. The records of the Norwegian Lutheran Churches in the US are at Decorah College in Decorah IA. The 1905 pieces were probably Confirmation gifts given on April 30, 1905 which is called Quasimodogeniti or St Thomas. IP: Logged |
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Hose_dk Posts: 400 |
posted 06-15-2009 02:32 AM
Konfirmation is the word or konfirmeret. IP: Logged |
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Elisabeth7291 Posts: 53 |
posted 06-15-2009 08:12 AM
Silverhunter, Dale, et al - Thanks so much for the help! They were indeed Luthern. I have a copy of the marriage certificate, which I assume would have the church on it. It is possible that he would have been confirmed in the same church he was married. Only problem, I can't read the certificate - it is in Norwegian! I may take a picture of it & post it here for help with translation. But I think the logic here about confirmation seems right. Thank you! Silverhunter - more of the collection is on it's way! Stay tuned! IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 06-15-2009 10:08 AM
Great job Dale to find the solution !. I hope Hose_DK will give it a try, for translate the comming question(s). I sit in the waiting room, until someone shows more Norwegian silver, at last there is again somebody with taste at this Forum. (no snip and bump please, THANK YOU! IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 06-15-2009 11:38 AM
There is a center in NYC for Norwegian American culture, which also has research facilities: This might be a place to start your search. IP: Logged |
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Elisabeth7291 Posts: 53 |
posted 06-15-2009 11:53 AM
Thank you, Dale! My husband & I are planning a trip to NY later this summer for research & this looks like a great resource! IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 06-15-2009 12:05 PM
Hose_dk, thanks for the information. Frequently there are differences between the spellings and usages of Scandanavian Americans and Scandanavians. That is because many of the immigrants came from rural areas and spoke dialects. The Swedish Augustana Church used 'Konfirmerade' in its documents. Of course they also pronounced 'sj' as 'whoooo'. The Norwegian churches used a country dialect in their proceedings. Does the silver being Confirmation gifts make sense to you Hose_dk? And is my description of the process beleivable? IP: Logged |
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Hose_dk Posts: 400 |
posted 06-15-2009 04:09 PM
No it makes no sence - well it does but at an earlier date. Around 1900 onwards I would say baptism - before deathspoons (sweden not denmark/norway), weddingsilver, konfirmation, 18-years, long loyal service etc. but in 1900 only the christining spoon remained. But again old traditions.. I shall translate the document when available. [This message has been edited by Hose_dk (edited 06-15-2009).] IP: Logged |
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bascall Posts: 1629 |
posted 06-15-2009 07:14 PM
Here's a phrase that may or may not apply here, maybe I just like it too well. Speaking of languages, a native cannot make a non native mistake. IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 06-15-2009 07:22 PM
Many families have members who continue on traditions that are no longer generally observed. Do you feel that the Sunday after Easter is a logical date for Confirmation? That is the only thing that makes sense to me. Another type of silver item I have seen is the emmigration spoon, utvandranars tid. The engraving will say something like: Minne af Eksjö, and the date the person left. I have had a number of larger items, usually Scandanavian and frequently plated, that had engravings along the lines of, Från syskonen in den Gammla Världen till Bengt och Lucy in den Nya Världen. Halsninger från Sverige. The ones that had dates gave a range from about the 1870s into the late 1930s. This may have been a custom that lingered far longer in the immigrant communities than in the old country. IP: Logged |
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Hose_dk Posts: 400 |
posted 06-16-2009 12:26 AM
Good morning. I do agree it is a very possible sonday for konfirmation. And it was not my intention to exclude a spoon for konfirmation. My point was that in general it would not be normal, but family tradition etc. With the 1900 we have entered a period where people do not have their personal piece of silver. Family have a set - depending upon their financial status - plated or silver. 12 forks, spoons, knives etc. That made the personal spoon disappear. Only in case of a child a personal spoon remained due to the small size needed. The saving of money in silver spoons had also ended. I have never seen an immigrant spoon - I suppose that they all left the old world. Therefore they should be in the US. So it is natural that I never happened to find one. But for many other occasions yes. I can imagine the people staying in Europe giving memories. But I cannot recall hearing about it. One learns every day. IP: Logged |
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Elisabeth7291 Posts: 53 |
posted 06-16-2009 08:11 AM
I don't think these are immigrant pieces. The first time he traveled to the US was in 1916 (one year after he married); he moved the family over in 1919. These pieces have a date of 1905. We do believe the family was wealthy, so maybe they did keep the tradition of giving silver at confirmation? IP: Logged |
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Elisabeth7291 Posts: 53 |
posted 06-18-2009 08:56 PM
We have success!! In a letter from William (Vilhelm) to the pastor at his church from 1946 - he requests a copy of his marriage license and he mentions that he was confirmed in the same church Spring of 1905! Thanks all! The church was Vor Frue Kirke in Trondhiem. On a related note, we also have several small books - velvet covers w/ silver clasps - written in German that look like they are from the Lutheran Church. They date from the 1870's & 1881. The look to be the same book (contents) - are they church doctrine? They aren't Bibles, that I can tell. IP: Logged |
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Elisabeth7291 Posts: 53 |
posted 06-18-2009 08:57 PM
So, given this recent discovery, this leads me to believe that P.Thoresen was from Trondheim. Appropriate logic? IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 06-18-2009 11:52 PM
The books you have are most likely Måsboks for the Norwegian Church. The printing type used is called Fraktur, which is also used for German, Danish and Swedish. It is really hard to read. The front part of the book contains several services in general form. The back has the special liturgies, psalms, gospels and epistles for each service as well as wedding, funeral and so on services. Are the silver clasps marked? One of them might be a Psalmbook, which is actually a hymnal. They are printed without music and usually have a number. Both take this small form. I always wondered how anyone could read the tiny print during a service. Vor Frue Kirke was begun in 1207 and probably is still having work done on. It means: Our Lady's Church. IP: Logged |
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Hose_dk Posts: 400 |
posted 06-19-2009 12:39 AM
Katekismus could be the word. Originally written by Luther "Luthers lille katekismus" Luthers little katekismus" written in 1529 containing the 10 commandments and a learning in how to perform during the churtical seremonies. Used in schools .. I have my mothers she was konfirmeret 1933 and as I recall it dates from that year. It is not used anymore. The salmebog Post picture of title - then we can explain what period. They are so common that pieces from 1800dreds are available at flea markets in large quantities. Don't understand why family don't value their traditions. But here (in Europe) you often see that a person don't know his grandfathers, fathers name or occupation. Did the person die before birth of a grandson/daughter then that info is gone. Pieces with metal are more uncommon. - everybody had one but only more rich people bought the metal. IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 06-19-2009 03:17 AM
It's also nice to research Norwegian emigrants lists, also from 1919. You know the names exactly, but it is nice to see the documents, the ships there were in that period, the quantity of Norwagian (Norsk) emigrants. There is so many history to find, by only a piece of silver with a date and a name and for family very important to know. [This message has been edited by silverhunter (edited 06-19-2009).] IP: Logged |
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Elisabeth7291 Posts: 53 |
posted 06-19-2009 12:23 PM
Yes, Silverhunter, we do have that information. Grandfather took 5 trips that we can find - two I just found yesterday - from Norway to US: 1916, 1918, 1919, 1920 and 1924. Along with the silver, we received a quite a few letters - some in English, others in Norwegian - books, photos, newspaper clippings, etc. Even Grandfather's Naturalization Certificate. We've learned more about that family from this box than my husband ever knew! Now it is just putting the pieces together! I think the books probably are Lutheran liturgy - there is reference to the Missouri Synod (spelling?) in it. I'll post a picture after the weekend. IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 06-19-2009 01:14 PM
Good to hear that the research is going well, you can make a detailed work project about the family. Just a tip, it's good when you scan the photo's and burn them on a disc (for reserve). From special photo's I've made also double copies. But I think you already have thougth about that. Perhaps it is also nice to make a seamap and draw the lines of the journies on witch date on the map your grandfather and family travelled at sea. I think it's a great job to do and when you effer finish?, for instance you can also make a family three with all the names and dates and put a little photo of the person with the information. At my side there is a person(no direct family in line) who has worked out our family tree and in passing the centuries there has been a change in spelling the family name at three possibilities. The oldest is Quackernaeck and looks at little at the Quacker group living in America.(no family relatif). But let us stay concentrated at your topic and I wish you ( + family ) a lot of succes. About my oldest grandfather there was information to find untill the mid 17th century. IP: Logged |
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Hose_dk Posts: 400 |
posted 06-19-2009 02:10 PM
 Regarding hallmarks upon silver books etc. This cross is 2.5 cm and 2.0cm weight is around 1 gram. I know that this has nothing to do with your Norwegian books - just to show the beauty and no hallmarks. IP: Logged |
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Elisabeth7291 Posts: 53 |
posted 06-22-2009 08:26 PM
Here's one of my books: It is propped on a case; both velvet book have cases. The other two are / were leather. This one is about 5.5 x 4 inches. Close up of latch & cover silver - no hallmarks or stamps anywhere: The inside front page: Language? Lutheran book of liturgy? Also, I've scanned in a few documents in Norwegian - anyone up for translating? IP: Logged |
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Hose_dk Posts: 400 |
posted 06-23-2009 12:40 AM
language German ant is Luther reforming chataloc church Martin Luther translation: 18 edition IP: Logged |
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agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 06-23-2009 05:21 AM
"Church Song (i.e. hymn) Book, containing the most popular hymns of Dr Martin Luther and other spiritual teachers" IP: Logged |
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Elisabeth7291 Posts: 53 |
posted 06-23-2009 08:31 AM
Thanks, Agphile & Hose_dk! IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 06-23-2009 11:19 AM
I wasn't able to take my dictionary out of my bookcase, THANKS A LOT Hose_dk. That old German grammatic is hardly to read also like the old dutch grammatic, but nowadays I'm glad using the comp. Real clear letter types it's a wonder! I also found the second page continue story of Peyton Place. Nice all that new facts. IP: Logged |
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Hose_dk Posts: 400 |
posted 06-23-2009 01:24 PM
You got the headlines and I have now printet Kirchen gesangbuch für evangelisch lutherische gemeinden ungeänberter Augsburgischer confession und so weiter (etc) They used af few letter difficult to see s is the long line (letter 3 second word) they had a sign for "ss" dobbel s used wery much ch wery much look like (mistaken for) dj and so on. IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 06-23-2009 02:06 PM
The mystery deepens. We now have a Norwegian immigrant living in New York City owning a German language hymnal printed in St Louis by a German American Church. I have never seen anything like the book. The publisher is in St Louis, so the silver fittings were probably made there. What is the other book like? IP: Logged |
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Elisabeth7291 Posts: 53 |
posted 06-23-2009 02:31 PM
The other velvet book is almost the same, just a bit larger. Then there are two leather books, but almost all of the leather has come off. They are both older. One has the date "1868" written in it. I don't recognize the names on the leather ones - they are embossed on the outside - so I'll have to pull out the family tree (has names only) to see if I can find them. As far as I know, all of the family is Norwegian, so yes, the German throws me off a bit. I'll get pictures of the other books & post them. [This message has been edited by Elisabeth7291 (edited 06-23-2009).] IP: Logged |
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Hose_dk Posts: 400 |
posted 06-23-2009 03:03 PM
Well a lot of connections between Scandinavia (ie Denmark and Norway) and Germany. Bergen (city) was part of the hanseatic league 14th century (I know that is a long time ago) but even today Germany is our largest trading partner. So for a Norwegian merchant - German language might very well be a must. As could be a German husband or wife. IP: Logged |
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agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 06-23-2009 07:05 PM
If the Lutheran Church was publishing German language hymnals in the USA I assume that means there were sufficient congregations still using German for worship to justify this. A Norwegian Lutheran might well have attended one of those churches, mightn't he? IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 06-24-2009 03:42 PM
Agphile, the answer to your question is 'no'. There never was one Lutheran Church in the US; there were dozens. All were organized according to country of origin, mainly. The Missouri Synod always stood apart from the other churches. Which is what makes this all so confusing. IP: Logged |
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). 
they exist in different sizes - the ones in church contain letters in larger size - the personal (well they are given when 13 or 14 years of age) eyes are still in good condition.
