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In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate. Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look. |
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In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate. Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look. |
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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 British / Irish Sterling
 Patch box maker query
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| Author | Topic: Patch box maker query |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4132 |
posted 02-28-2001 01:49 PM
  
I re-discovered this lovely little (1" x 5/8") patch box while poking around in my box of mystery makers. I have showed it around and been told English, French, Dutch, American, but all based on nothing more than a feeling. Any thoughts? [This message has been edited by wev (edited 02-28-2001).] IP: Logged |
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Richard Kurtzman Moderator Posts: 768 |
posted 03-01-2001 12:08 AM
The mark "STERLING" was frequently used on Irish provincal silver. This may be a possibility. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4132 |
posted 03-01-2001 11:16 AM
Another collector sent me a scan this morning with the mark of James Taylor of Glasgow (w. 1773-1780). It has the same oval cartouche with one flat side and the letter forms are a match as well. Did the Scots occasionally use the words Sterling Silver like the Irish? Another suggestion was that it was re-marked when imported to the US, though that would indicate the Victorian era and I think the box is earlier than that. On such a small bit, it would seem a rather pointless exercise, but perhaps it was standard practise. Anyone familiar with such import marking rules? [This message has been edited by wev (edited 03-01-2001).] IP: Logged |
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Audrey unregistered |
posted 03-04-2001 02:26 PM
I have two boxes with exactly the same marks---one is round, and the other is oval, with slighty different decoration than yours. I've been perplexed about these as they seem perfectly genuine 18th century boxes, just the strange "Sterling Silver" stamps with exactly the same maker. I had thought it was Joseph Taylor, a Birmingham maker, and perhaps some sort of "duty dodger", but can't find anything similar in books. The Irish provincial marks usually are just "STERLING", without the word "SILVER" added. I'd love to find out more. IP: Logged |
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Brent Posts: 1507 |
posted 03-04-2001 07:02 PM
Here are my two cents on the matter. I too have a similar patch box. My maker's mark is SP in an oval, though. This mark can be conclusively linked to Samuel Pemberton, a Birmingham smith who specialized in boxes. My box was brought here recently by a dealer who imports English antiques, and does not have the "STERLING SILVER" stamps. That said, I believe all of these boxes are authentic 18th-19th century English. Pieces of this small size were generally exempted from assay and duty, and hence were originally sold with a maker's mark only. I would guess that the "STERLING SILVER" stamps were placed on the pieces at a later date. Paul Lemieux has told me that some English jewelry made in the late 1800's for export will be marked "STERLING SILVER", rather than bearing the proper hallmarks. Perhaps these marks were added to some old stock for export to the US. In a recent issue of Silver magazine, Don Soeffing noted the existence of pattern coin silver with "STERLING" stamps, probably added in the past few years to make them more palatable to the ignorant. Perhaps the same motivation was at work here. IP: Logged |
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Audrey unregistered |
posted 03-04-2001 07:41 PM
Reply to Brent--I had first thought that patchboxes would be exempt from hallmarking because of their lightweight, but according to the "Hallmark, a History of the London Assay Office" by JS Forbes, (page 233) the "Silver Plate Act 1790" specifically did not exempt patchboxes and they would have had to be hallmarked. In the two examples I have, the maker's mark and the "sterling silver" mark have been positioned to be centered and it looks like they were purposely positioned to be struck at the same time. If the "sterling silver" mark was added later, it would not be perfectly symmetrical and centered. Anyway, I believe they were struck with these marks originally......but where????? They look so typically English, 18th century.......... IP: Logged |
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karen Posts: 16 |
posted 03-10-2001 07:40 AM
Interesting subject - and first off, I know Samuel Pemberton, John Taylors and such makers marks very well. All though the makers marks look to be English and early 1800s; the punches of STERLING and SILV etc are not of english origin. Note the crudeness of the punch, and EXTRA big size ( and disapportionate use of same). Ever thought about erasures? To rest assure, these items were not exclusive of duty and nor were their makers, but erasures and re-punching are something we could all relate to. There will always be a lion passant somewhere. Finding erasures will be difficult on these pieces, even to the trained eye. These boxes were all made so thinly and discretely to begin with. Nahhh..... look at the marks. The bottom ones are defintely from a different timezone. Love K IP: Logged |
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Brent Posts: 1507 |
posted 03-11-2001 06:34 PM
Exempt or not, there is pretty good evidence that a lot of English smalls were marked only with the maker's mark, particularly in areas outside of London. Scotland in particular had a number of silversmiths who rarely had pieces assayed, even large items that could easily have been marked. It makes life difficult for those of us who have an interest in early American silver, but we must face the fact that small items of English silver sometimes didn't receive the lion passant they were due. That said, I do think the STERLING SILVER stamps on these boxes were added at a later date, quite possibly here in the USA and probably to make them more easy to sell. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4132 |
posted 03-11-2001 07:08 PM
I would agree with Brent's last - at least the first part. I took my box to a friend's machine shop and we tested the thickness of both the lid and bottom. There was remarkably little variation in the metal and certainly not enough to account for an erasure of any kind. This gets us no closer to solving our little mystery, of course. Perhaps we can take a different tack: when did patches go out of style? Mid 18th? Late 18th? And were they ever that popular in the US? IP: Logged |
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Audrey unregistered |
posted 03-12-2001 07:31 AM
One little fact we've all forgotten about: Birmingham didn't even have an assay office before 1773--before that a silversmith would have had to take his pieces to the nearest assay office, which was Chester, or even to London, both towns a good distance, especially by stagecoach! Perhaps, if these are marked by Joseph Taylor, they were made just before the Birmingham assay office came into existence--and for some reason he felt that by marking them "sterling" and "silver" he could differentiate between the real thing and Sheffield Plate........maybe he didn't feel like sending his things to Chester that day!! Two other questions: 1. If they are not patch boxes, what were they for? 2. What are the earliest known examples of bright-cutting? Was it done before 1773? IP: Logged |
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Audrey unregistered |
posted 03-22-2001 05:34 PM
Here are photos of my two patch boxes, top and bottom views of each. Obviously they are by the same maker as WEV's box--does anyone have any new thoughts?? The condition and color of each is good, the photos magnify every little flaw. Hope we can solve this mystery! IP: Logged |
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vathek Posts: 966 |
posted 03-25-2001 01:36 PM
I have a thimble marked "made in england/sterling silver", which I had never seen before. I have seen thimbles (mostly birmingham) with the usual english marks, though. IP: Logged |
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vathek Posts: 966 |
posted 03-25-2001 01:39 PM
Just another thought, 'though I haven't looked into it - but didn't some Baltimore smiths use the sterling standard pretty early on? IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 04-22-2006 10:03 PM
It strikes me as odd that the STERLING stamps (which would seem to be later additions) on these boxes are centered and the maker's marks are not. It raises the question of which were applied first. IP: Logged |
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