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Undated Georgian teaspoons..

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Author	Topic: Undated Georgian teaspoons..
suefromoz Posts: 58 Registered: May 2002	posted 07-26-2003 03:06 AM Hello again, I have 2 old silver teaspoons, with lovely clear marks for the duty, the lion and the maker, RJ. I assume they are London pieces but without a date mark, I am stuck! Any ideas please? Many thanks Sue IP: Logged
Brent Posts: 1507 Registered: May 99	posted 07-26-2003 08:30 AM I think your assumptions are correct. Date wise, circa 1800, certainly within 20 years of that date. Brent IP: Logged
suefromoz Posts: 58 Registered: May 2002	posted 07-26-2003 09:11 AM More thanks Brent! I was hoping for that kind of date for them. Now to try and track down RJ, the maker Thanks again for all your help IP: Logged
vathek Posts: 966 Registered: Jun 99	posted 07-27-2003 07:58 AM Does anyone else think that the lion passant doesn't look quite right? IP: Logged
Patrick Vyvyan Posts: 640 Registered: May 2003	posted 07-29-2003 11:48 PM This is a general question, reflecting my ignorance: is it common to find British hallmarks without the corresponding date stamp? And if so, why no date? IP: Logged
Anuh Posts: 190 Registered: Jan 2003	posted 07-30-2003 12:07 PM quote: Originally posted by Patrick Vyvyan: This is a general question, reflecting my ignorance: is it common to find British hallmarks without the corresponding date stamp? And if so, why no date? I'm with you and vathek, Patrick. The marks don't look right. I'm no expert, but my Wyler's shows the 1800's mark (assuming Brent's dating to be correct, and I believe he probably isn't far off) to consist of the Leopard head in a rounded oval cartouche flattened on top, the lion passant facing front (this one appears to face left) with a date letter between them followed by a King's head behind them. I can't say I really understand the significance of all these marks, but I'm sure they had a reason for each one. There's a lot I don't know about silver, but I do know that the style of decoration was popular in the early 1800's. I don't know if they ever allowed silver to be marked with less than a full set of marks, but I've also heard that a lot of early makers in this country would put pseudo-hallmarks on their pieces to make them look more like British made pieces. This could be a really interesting discussion if some of our more knowledgeable people were to join in. ------------------ Anuh IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 07-30-2003 01:26 PM I do not consider myself an "expert" on English silver, but since no such person has joined this discussion, I think I can safely add that I do know that small items did not have to be fully marked. It seems quite common in this period for small spoons and tongs to be marked like these spoons, lacking the town and date mark. Prior to the introduction of the sovereign's head, only the lion passant was used; eventually the date letter was added, and only the town mark was omitted. The small punches used do not always look like the larger ones in the tables - some of the lions passant are visibly different - one in particular is quite attenuated. I suspect if this particular mark, which looks oddly fractured, were cleaned of its tarnish, it might look more normal. For some reason, they seem to have done a better job with the sovereign's head punches - this one looks quite genuine. [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 07-30-2003).] IP: Logged
adelapt Posts: 418 Registered: May 2003	posted 07-30-2003 04:23 PM I agree with Swarter about the part-marking. Once we lose the town mark though, such as the leopard head for London, we can consider whether the part-mark is really from somewhere else. Haven't checked myself, but consider looking for the maker at Exeter or Newcastle or one of the other provincial assay offices. IP: Logged
suefromoz Posts: 58 Registered: May 2002	posted 07-31-2003 09:41 AM I cleaned these up as best I can, without resorting to harsh chemicals. Maybe the lion is clearer to those in the know now?? I have a very limited maker's name book but I cannot find RJ at all. There is a mark in the index, telling me to look on page 178 but no mark on it when I get there.. IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 07-31-2003 12:30 PM There is a small mark in Grimwade (London Goldsmiths) which may be this maker. It is the only RJ listed, entered in 1800 by a "smallworker" named R. Johnston. The mark is similar, not an exact match, but your marks are worn and the marks in the book are not photographs. Apparently nothing is known of this person beyond the entry in the records, as no first nsme is given, and there is no entry for him in the biographical section. Your cleaning makes things clearer. The differences between the punch marks of the lion on the two spoons may be traceable to an uncleaned or partly plugged punch, in which adhering debris prevented a clean reproduction (particularly of the head), and/or there may be a scratch in one mark (after application) that seems to separate the head from the leg. The consistent irregularities in the outline of the sovereign's head punch may indicate damage from use - a worn punch ready for replacement. IP: Logged
nihontochicken Posts: 289 Registered: May 2003	posted 08-01-2003 01:22 AM Hi! I can't find "RJ" in my Wylers (says p.200, but hell if I can see it), but your spoon reminds me of this: This is the topside of the spoon in my 7/10/03 inquiry on this list. My main push then was re the fact of the shouldered Old English Pattern manufacture, not really rare, but atypical. But the bright cut pattern on the top seems very close to your spoon. My reference, which I have misplaced, I think localized this shouldered OEP and, more importantly, this type of decoration to the 1770-1780 time frame. My Ferris spoon is ten to twenty years later than this, but, of course, it is provincial. So my guess for your piece is just prior to 1800, and likewise provincial. No real faith in this, just an errant suggestion, use or discard as appropriate. ;o) Rick IP: Logged
suefromoz Posts: 58 Registered: May 2002	posted 08-02-2003 02:08 AM Firstly, Sorry Scott! I had not realised that the files were over the over the limit.. Thanks to Swarter and nihontochicken - I have a book by Korman, with RJ in the index, that directs me to page 178 and yet the RJ maker is not there either. Many thanks to all who helped with this little pair of spoons. I hope I have learned something from it IP: Logged
adelapt Posts: 418 Registered: May 2003	posted 08-03-2003 03:44 AM Sue: I reckon your spoonmaker is one Richard Jenkins, who worked from about 1760/64 until about 1806 (died 1807). May have originated in Plymouth, but had his work hallmarked at the Exeter Assay Office. Exeter Museum has one of his spoons, marked for 1801 (from memory). He is listed in both versions of "Jackson", but his mark is not shown. IP: Logged
suefromoz Posts: 58 Registered: May 2002	posted 08-08-2003 12:08 AM Well thank you so much for that, adelapt! That is a great piece of info - and thanks to everyone who contributed to this Spoon Query. IP: Logged

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