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Unknown age of silver teaspoons

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Author	Topic: Unknown age of silver teaspoons
RossinScotland unregistered	posted 05-29-2003 05:53 AM [01-1094] Hi there, I was advised to come here to find out more about my silver spoons. Please advise me of the age. - Thank you. IP: Logged
doobees Posts: 277 Registered: Jan 2003	posted 05-29-2003 07:56 AM Is the second mark an F? Could you get the lion passant a little clearer? So far I have George III (duty mark 1784-1890),?f (letter date), Lion passant (sterling), and Leopard's head crowned (1478-1821. I am just an amateur M. RossinScotland, so my word is hardly law, but I'm guessing 1801-1802 depending on the F... The GB may be George Burrows who's marks are usually found on spoons made by him during the 2nd half of the 18th century. ...Scott? ------------------ Suzanne D IP: Logged
doobees Posts: 277 Registered: Jan 2003	posted 05-29-2003 07:57 AM Hey Scott, Why is this post so huge? ------------------ Suzanne D IP: Logged
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11573 Registered: Apr 93	posted 05-29-2003 09:02 AM I have captured your original image which was sized to 1024 pixels wide at 72 dpi and have edited and cropped it to 490 pixels wide at 72 dpi. IP: Logged
RossinScotland unregistered	posted 05-29-2003 10:14 AM Hi again, Thank you for all your help so far. Here is a picture which is hopefully a bit better. It is difficult because the hallmark is very rubbed. The "f" is lower case. IP: Logged
nihontochicken Posts: 289 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-29-2003 02:03 PM Apology to those who read this before I corrected my boo-boo! I misread the the start of the duty stamp column. It's not quite as straight forward as I originally believed. Given the King Geo. duty mark (duty paid, mark begun in 1784), the lower case "f" date letter should represent 1821-1822 (date marks were changed in mid-year, I think in May, and not at the turn of the calendar year). Wyler shows the London town stamp should be a Leopard Uncrowned for this date mark, but since the town mark was just changed from a Leopard Crowned of the previous year, it appears you have a transition spoon with the old town mark (the source of my original confusion). A similar "f" with Leopard Crowned for 1781-1782 would not show a King Geo. duty stamp. The Lion Passant indicates sterling. "GB" is the maker. Given the date, Geo. Burrows I is out, I think. I find the mark of, I believe, Geo. Burrows II entered with his mother Alice (GB I's widow), "AB/GB", entered in 1802. Geo. Baskerville is a possibility (date mark entered 1745, and re-entry dates as late as 1791-2, which tells me it was possibly a father and son deal instead of the same guy for the entire period), and Geo. Bindon (mark entered 1749) and other "GB"s likely way too early. I find no other "GB" marks for London near this time period (in fact, I find no marks at all for Geo. Burrows I or II working alone). The Baskerville mark shown in Wyler is somewhat indistinct, but could represent the clipped corners shown on your piece, so I'll go with him (note that he later got into canine breeding . Okay, I'll have to punt on the maker to someone with more complete silversmith info. Hope this helped. Hope I got it right this time! Rick IP: Logged
doobees Posts: 277 Registered: Jan 2003	posted 05-29-2003 03:42 PM Now that I see it clearly, I think the match for the f is better for 1821-22. So now the search is on for a maker since George Burrows would be pretty darned old by then! ------------------ Suzanne D IP: Logged
doobees Posts: 277 Registered: Jan 2003	posted 05-29-2003 03:50 PM Hey Scott, HELP!!!!! I have a new camera... Will the photos always come out this big? I wanted to have decent magnification... looks like "be careful what you wish for." ------------------ Suzanne D IP: Logged
nihontochicken Posts: 289 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-29-2003 07:11 PM Suzanne - dueling references? Here's the page from Wyler: Beginning with London date letter "f" for 1821-1822, Wyler shows an a change to the uncrowned Leopard Head, whilst your reference show a continuance of the crowned Leopard Head. Which is correct? MY EXPERT CAN BEAT UP YOUR EXPERT!!! Yuk, yuk, yuk! Rick IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-29-2003 07:48 PM Wyler is obsolete (all it does is reprint other obsolete sources) - it has been in print unchanged since 1937!. The English tables in Wyler are copied from an old edition of Jackson, and have been corrected in Jackson's third. Application of the marks for George IV, whose reign began in 1820 was delayed until some time during the 1821-22 date year, so either the GIII & lion crowned or GIV & "leopard's head" marks can appear with the "f" - both are shown for that year in the revised table. IP: Logged
nihontochicken Posts: 289 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-30-2003 12:35 AM Thanks, swarter, though despite its drawbacks, it appears that my reference was closer to the mark than Suzanne's reference (nanner, nanner, nanner!!! ;o). So what reference should we all have to be on top of it all? Is Jackson III the current best standard? Rick IP: Logged
RossinScotland unregistered	posted 05-30-2003 05:07 AM Thanks for all your help. IP: Logged
doobees Posts: 277 Registered: Jan 2003	posted 05-30-2003 08:04 AM Swarther is correct that Jackson's has both leopard's heads shown for that year... Though I could be wrong, Monsieur Rick - I'd say that'd make the dating actually more precise for early 1821-1822 than your puny book did. I had originally just used my little pocket Jackson's (... what was I thinking???) Now I've gotten out the "BIG BOOK"... Jackson's third Edition revised 1989, reprinted in 2000 ------------------ Suzanne D IP: Logged
nihontochicken Posts: 289 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-30-2003 11:10 AM Oh, sure, Suzanne, get into a little trouble, and you run off and get THE BIG BOOK!!! Okay, I'll just have to get A BIG BOOK of my own, then we'll see! ;o) BTW, any other info on "GB"? I have these sorrowful mental images of poor Geo. Baskerville pounding out spoons by candlelight well into his nineties. Say it ain't so! Rick IP: Logged
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11573 Registered: Apr 93	posted 05-30-2003 11:20 AM Hey Rick, Check out the forums Smilies Feature instead of this ;o) you could have this IP: Logged
doobees Posts: 277 Registered: Jan 2003	posted 05-30-2003 11:30 AM HAH!! Take that... and that... and that... And just you try, Rick to beat me at the monster photos. Seriously though, I'm terrified to post right now because I have a new camera and haven't a clue how to get the pixel size down to Scott's recommended size. Any suggestions? I'm not getting anywhere with the GB now either. Poor 'ol George - and those were supposed to be his Golden Years. To Rossinscotland: See what you started!!! You just wanted to know about your spoons and ended up starting the Great Reference Book War ------------------ Suzanne D IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-30-2003 12:27 PM Suzanne: There should be a menu in your camera that lets you adjust the image size down at least to 800 X 600. Then, if you have have an inage editing program (most cameras come with a basic one), you can further reduce the size, or, if you cannot do that, just trim down the margins a bit. Rick: Unfortunately, there is no single volume source that covers so many areas as Wyler, which is probably why it is still sells and stays in print. Jackson II reprints are still available from Dover, cheaper and easier to find than Jackson III, which is unfortunate, in that III is greatly revised and updated, and use of II only perpetuates what are now known to be errors, as does Wyler. The most comprehensive single source for American marks is Ensko IV, but Ensko III is still sold in paperback - the difference between the two may not be as great as in the Jacksons, but the same comments apply. IP: Logged
FredZ Posts: 1070 Registered: Jun 99	posted 05-30-2003 09:37 PM I have yet to figure out Wyler's method of attribution. I can never figure how to use the numbers after the marks. IP: Logged
doobees Posts: 277 Registered: Jan 2003	posted 05-31-2003 06:36 AM Swarter, thank you for the info on Ensko IV. I'll pick one up when I'm next in the States. For American resources, I have only Kovel's and the Wyler's "Book of Old Silver." I don't like using the Kovel's at all and you know all about the drawbacks of Wyler's... Here, I need all the reference books I can get since the English bookstores here have very little to offer in the area of silver identification. Merci! ------------------ Suzanne D IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-31-2003 02:43 PM Most American bookstores, don't have anything useful, either, Suzanne, so why wait - try an internet search. Re Fred's question about Wyler - if you are referring to the American table, I can't either. The single dates are probably taken from the other works from which he copied the marks, and those are so old now that they are almost impossible to find for verification. My guess would be that they are estimates based on the assumed age of the articles from which the original authors took the marks (that is what Ensko did). Since there was no precise hallmarking system as there is in England, the dates could be way off, and some are. The hyphenated dates are supposed to represent working dates, probably also taken from those same sources. What he did if he encountered conflicting dates, I have no idea. Maybe he put them together and made working dates out of them - there is no way to know. Kovels' book is merely a compendium of information from published sources. It shows no sign of how decisions might have been reached in combining information from different sources, but it does list those sources with each entry. Therefore it can and should be used only as a guide to those sources - it tells you where else to look, and you have to make your own decisions. The book really should not be used as a primary source of identification, but few people have access to those originals, so if it is so used, it should be used with an abundance of caution. [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 05-31-2003).] IP: Logged
June Martin Forum Master Posts: 1343 Registered: Apr 93	posted 05-31-2003 08:18 PM There are a lot of GB makers. Given the timeframe, some possible candidates are George Brace, George Batts, George Bales, George Bunn. Many Georges! For silver references, you should check out the For Sale forum and also the Silver Library. We currently have an Ensko III hardcover for sale. Reference books for sale IP: Logged
nihontochicken Posts: 289 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-31-2003 09:25 PM June, can you identify where you found all your Georges? I've already got Ensko IV (may have erroneously said Ensko III before) for American smiths, but I guess I need an update over Wyler for the Brits. Thanks! Rick IP: Logged
June Martin Forum Master Posts: 1343 Registered: Apr 93	posted 06-01-2003 12:02 AM The Directory of Gold & Silversmiths From the London Assay Office Registers - John Culme. IP: Logged
vathek Posts: 966 Registered: Jun 99	posted 06-01-2003 07:59 AM Sun in plendor? I've seen lots of Brit silver from that period and I don't recall seeing that mark, what's the significance? IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 06-01-2003 01:45 PM See the new posting on the "Sun in Splendor" for an answer to this question. This is a good place to break this thread as it has grown so long it is in danger of being tied in knots! IP: Logged

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